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  1. #31
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    Re: Bourbons with Caramel and/or Butterscotch flavor in their profile

    The first thing that comes to mind is pre beam Old Taylor, which is hard to come by. Buttersctoch all the way. Not one bourbon on the market now has that much in it. Lots of bourbon used to have this, somebody already mentioned Old Forester. Most distilleries used to ferment hotter as they had not cooling in the fermenters. It stressed the yeast, making diacetyl and there you have it. Most have coils now as they have thickened the mash up to get more whiskey out of a fermenter. Makers Mark I am told recently just did that.

  2. #32
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    Re: Bourbons with Caramel and/or Butterscotch flavor in their profile

    Quote Originally Posted by tmckenzie View Post
    The first thing that comes to mind is pre beam Old Taylor, which is hard to come by. Buttersctoch all the way. Not one bourbon on the market now has that much in it. Lots of bourbon used to have this, somebody already mentioned Old Forester. Most distilleries used to ferment hotter as they had not cooling in the fermenters. It stressed the yeast, making diacetyl and there you have it. Most have coils now as they have thickened the mash up to get more whiskey out of a fermenter. Makers Mark I am told recently just did that.
    Nice info Tom. Makes sense.The ND distilled...either Old Taylor or Old Grand Dad, nothing comes close to those butterscotch bombs. Not so much, as I recall Old Crow, though I never had pre '60s original formula Old Crow which, per Chuck, was mistakenly changed in a plant expansion the '60s.
    Thad

    BTOTY-2011

  3. #33
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    Re: Bourbons with Caramel and/or Butterscotch flavor in their profile

    Thanks for that Tom, your input is always appreciated.

    I've had the pre-1960 distilled Crow Thad and as nearly as I can recall (memory's a bit hazy, this was nearly 50 years ago) it was dryer than a contemporary Old Taylor, both were 6 years old and 86 proof.

  4. #34
    Bourbonian of the Year 2011
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    Re: Bourbons with Caramel and/or Butterscotch flavor in their profile

    Interesting how in some ways bourbon production was so traditional or artisan until recently, and in many ways still is. For example, all large breweries - setting aside some craft operations - are now "sterile" (no jokes please) in a way they never were in the era of wooden vessels and poor temperature control. E.g. I've read Guinness only became so around 1950. Yet breweries from the 1700's were at least using "attemporators" to control mashing and fermenting temperatures, essentially through the kinds of coils Tom mentioned. But in whiskey production, that wasn't deemed necessary until comparatively recently because the beer would, i) be rendered slightly acidic anyway to lower the Ph to assist fermentation and prevent spoilage bacteria from getting at the sugars, ii) the beer would last only as long as was needed until the next still run. Diacetyl can still be a problem in brewing but techniques exist such as "rests" to reduce or eliminate it.

    One wonders why the distillers eliminated some of these interesting old tastes which gave character to their makes...

    Gary

  5. #35
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    Re: Bourbons with Caramel and/or Butterscotch flavor in their profile

    Quote Originally Posted by tmckenzie View Post
    The first thing that comes to mind is pre beam Old Taylor, which is hard to come by. Buttersctoch all the way. Not one bourbon on the market now has that much in it. Lots of bourbon used to have this, somebody already mentioned Old Forester.
    I turned 21 in 1986 and, having been influenced by 1950s magazine ads, immediately took up with the BIB expressions of Taylor, Grand-Dad, Forester, and Fitz. This amused a bartender friend of mine who called them "World War II Veterans' Whiskey", but I loved them. And in those pre-public Internet days, I had absolutely no clue that I was enjoying the tail end of a golden age that would never be repeated. (We have lovely bourbon now, don't get me wrong, but it's not what it was back then.)

    OGD BIB and Old Forester Signature are still pleasant pours, although they have noticeably changed. I'll get Fitz now and again and while HH does their best to keep it going, all they have is what they inherited when they bought New Bernheim - which is a far cry from what was being put out at Stitzel-Weller in its glory days. I haven't had the temerity to try Old Taylor since Beam bought it, although I still have an unopened 500ml ND BIB bottle that's unbelievably nine years old (distilled 1971, bottled 1980) that I'm saving for some special occasion or other. Late 1980s-early 1990s OT BIB was probably my favorite bourbon ever.

  6. #36
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    Re: Bourbons with Caramel and/or Butterscotch flavor in their profile

    Perhaps in retrospect they wouldn't have Gary.

  7. #37
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    Re: Bourbons with Caramel and/or Butterscotch flavor in their profile

    Quote Originally Posted by tmckenzie View Post
    The first thing that comes to mind is pre beam Old Taylor, which is hard to come by. Buttersctoch all the way. Not one bourbon on the market now has that much in it. Lots of bourbon used to have this, somebody already mentioned Old Forester. Most distilleries used to ferment hotter as they had not cooling in the fermenters. It stressed the yeast, making diacetyl and there you have it. Most have coils now as they have thickened the mash up to get more whiskey out of a fermenter. Makers Mark I am told recently just did that.
    Interesting. From what I was lucky enough to meet Jim Russel and asked him about yeast. He said they use the “cleanest” strain they can. From my beer making days, I know you can get strains that produce diacetyl, perceived as a buttery flavor in stouts.
    But they seem not to want that.

  8. #38
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    Re: Bourbons with Caramel and/or Butterscotch flavor in their profile

    Those trying to squeeze every once of alcohol out of the mash don't want that.

  9. #39
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    Re: Bourbons with Caramel and/or Butterscotch flavor in their profile

    Quote Originally Posted by shoshani View Post
    I turned 21 in 1986 and, having been influenced by 1950s magazine ads, immediately took up with the BIB expressions of Taylor, Grand-Dad, Forester, and Fitz. This amused a bartender friend of mine who called them "World War II Veterans' Whiskey", but I loved them. And in those pre-public Internet days, I had absolutely no clue that I was enjoying the tail end of a golden age that would never be repeated. (We have lovely bourbon now, don't get me wrong, but it's not what it was back then.)

    OGD BIB and Old Forester Signature are still pleasant pours, although they have noticeably changed. I'll get Fitz now and again and while HH does their best to keep it going, all they have is what they inherited when they bought New Bernheim - which is a far cry from what was being put out at Stitzel-Weller in its glory days. I haven't had the temerity to try Old Taylor since Beam bought it, although I still have an unopened 500ml ND BIB bottle that's unbelievably nine years old (distilled 1971, bottled 1980) that I'm saving for some special occasion or other. Late 1980s-early 1990s OT BIB was probably my favorite bourbon ever.
    The main reason is money behind the coils. You can ferment a mash with only so much sugar in it without coils. When you beef the mash up, that sucker will get hot. Over about 104 degrees, yeast start to stress out. We have no coils and it is nothing for mash to get 100 degrees. I want it to so I can get those nice flavors. I think and have been told that the flavors bourbon enthusiasts like so much and miss, like the flavors in OT and OG from years ago were dispensed with on account of trying to make a more drinkable product that appeals to the general public. Some plants might would make a bourbon with those flavors but they have seen business boom on the new cleaner product, so they do not dare mess with it. I can see their reasoning behind it.

  10. #40
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    Re: Bourbons with Caramel and/or Butterscotch flavor in their profile

    Quote Originally Posted by JPBoston View Post
    ...

    So anyway --- are there any regularly available pours that feature that caramel or butterscotch sweetness? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    ...
    I can suggest Old Forester Signature. It's similar or the same as Woodrord, except without the addition of the pot still whiskey. Also, Early Times 354 has a sweeter taste profile that reminds me of the dusty OF bonds. Another bourbon that has a maple syrup or carmel type note is Josh Brooks. It is bottled by Frank-Lin in San Jose CA. As with many non-distillers, we don't know who made it. I'm also a big fan of Weller 12, but have noticed that some batches seem drier than others (but all good).

 

 

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