In Scotland there's a lot more truth in labeling. Every bottle of single-malt tells you the truth where its made whether its a distillery bottling or an independent bottler like Signatory. Can't say the same for U.S. bottlers. In the U.S. everything is one big grey area. When it comes to KBD its a little more grey than others, that's all. If you don't think that's on some level a fraud you are either being dishonest yourself or ignorant.
The real ignorance of this conversation is calling American Whiskey NDPs frauds. There are very good reasons they don't disclose their sources and I'm sure they have no interest in catering to overly entitled consumers anyhow. If you don't like, don't buy it. Calling them frauds is not necessary or appropriate.
Wanting to know where something was made makes one overly entitled? Okay then.
For the Scottish example, it's only "mostly" true for Single Malts. You'll likely not know (or at least its difficult to find out) what the source is in blends and there are examples of Single Malts where the source is not revealed (e.g. Ellenstown, Port Askaig, etc.,)
Personally, I'd like to see sources for North American whiskey follow Tequila's lead where the NOM is clearly stated on the bottle.
Last edited by ChainWhip; 01-04-2013 at 09:43.
¡Geaux Tigers! - ¡Visca el Barça!
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I skip the pedestrian KBD expressions due to Drew's "F U for asking" response to theories about their barrel sources here on SB. There are many respectable and respected producers of fine American whiskey and I choose to spend my money on their products instead.
I will purchase an Estate bottling if a friend or trusted retailer has selected the barrel since they are one-offs by their nature but I won't support their business otherwise.
My name is Joel Goodson. I deal in human fulfillment.
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While it's true Scottish Independent Merchants disclose the name of the distillery on the label of high end Single Malts that's usually not the case for the lower price brands. McCelland's for example does not disclose the source of it's Highland Single Malt (Glen Gariogh at one time but they reserve the right to use any) but they sell it for $22.95 a bottle. When the price gets up into the premium range however the distillery is disclosed.
When an American NDP offers me a brand costing as much as, say, BT 2012 LE SmB, I believe it's reasonable for me to ask who made the whisky.
Last edited by squire; 01-04-2013 at 09:58.
I think the WPS bourbon is fine. I think the bottle is neat and it does become a topic of conversation .. invariably .. as it sits atop the shelf holding my collection.
My post was meant only to object to the besmirching of the KBD name by blatantly calling them dirty frauds. I'm sure my opinion is colored by the fact that I like and respect the KBD family and I enjoy many of their offerings. Peace and out.
I too would prefer to know where something is distilled but at the same time, a product can acquire a "house" characteristic in the hands of a NDP because of the way it selects and/or further ages it or possibly mingles it. A good example is Pure Kentucky XO which IMO for many years has had a very specific character, kind of a combination of old and newer tastes, that I've never found elsewhere, so I would buy that and it used to be quite inexpensive (not sure of the price right now), so that was an off-set to a degree for not knowing who distilled it. Same thing e.g., with Van Winkle rye, for a long time it wasn't clear where it was from although it finally come out I think, but I relied on the brand as a guarantee of quality and it was and remains so to this day.
Looking at the known-source side (distillery offerings), sometimes with these, it might have been contracted elsewhere at least as white dog - this is known to have happened.
HH used for a time Beam and B-F distilling plant when its own still had burned down for example so some of its product for a time wasn't from the old DSP 33 or entirely from there. Finally HH bought new Bernheim and makes great bourbon there (distills it I mean), so another variable is added as often occurs in the distilling business. Even where you are pretty sure of source - Maker's has always been made I believe in Loretto for example - bourbon can change in taste over time and IMO Maker's does not taste quite like it did 30 years ago. Age statements have changed for many brands, which can affect taste right there.
Finally, if we look back far enough, distillers originally did not typically age their product, they sold it to people who did so off-site or later on their site perhaps, but the point being the role of middlemen and NDPs was critical to the development of the American whiskey industry.
So I kind of view it in this broader sense and at the end of the day can enjoy what is in the bottle without needing to know where it originated.
Last edited by Gillman; 01-04-2013 at 10:25.
Not fraudulent? Probably not legally, but when any producer of NPP whisky intentionally makes a material misrepresentation of fact for their own monetary gain what do you call it . . . fibbing?