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  1. #11
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    Need Opinions - 2011 PVW 15 vs. 4RSmBLE2012

    Do the trade.
    Attn SB nation: if you see a PVW 15 on Craigslist for $400 do not buy it.

  2. #12
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    Re: Need Opinions - 2011 PVW 15 vs. 4RSmBLE2012

    We're talking about a bottle of bourbon here...it's not a kidney. If you feel that you're going to enjoy drinking one over the other that is all that should matter. It's not a $400 bottle if you're not willing to pay it...it's whatever you paid vs whatever he paid for it at the store as resale value shouldn't even be considered unless you plan on selling it. I would happily trade a 2011 PVW15 for a FRLE SmB 2012 as I think the FR's is a better bourbon...now if you were asking for a 2009 or earlier PVW15 I might have a different answer.
    You can find me in chat most nights on days ending with the letter y!

  3. #13
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    Re: Need Opinions - 2011 PVW 15 vs. 4RSmBLE2012

    If you really like the FR, then yeah, go ahead and do the trade. The other dude will do...what he does. Heck, people are running stores on here, for Pete's Sake. Can't stop a schmuck from being a schmuck.
    JOE

    Wag more.
    Bark less.

    "Every bottle is its own learning experience." -- Sensei Ox-sama

  4. #14
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    Re: Need Opinions - 2011 PVW 15 vs. 4RSmBLE2012

    Quote Originally Posted by hectic1 View Post
    We're talking about a bottle of bourbon here...it's not a kidney. If you feel that you're going to enjoy drinking one over the other that is all that should matter. It's not a $400 bottle if you're not willing to pay it...it's whatever you paid vs whatever he paid for it at the store as resale value shouldn't even be considered unless you plan on selling it. I would happily trade a 2011 PVW15 for a FRLE SmB 2012 as I think the FR's is a better bourbon...now if you were asking for a 2009 or earlier PVW15 I might have a different answer.
    I both agree and disagree. I agree in that, yeah, it's not THAT big a deal - it's just bourbon, no lives are at stake here, its not like we are ruining the lives of some 3rd world laborers by using this product, etc. I also agree with your conclusion - I mean, I might / probably would just do it.

    But I disagree with the premise that this decision only involves two bottles of bourbon. Because when flippers can complete $400 dollars exchanges for highly desirable stuff, that unquestionably has a subtle-but-radical ripple effect on the bourbon market as a whole. More specifically, it puts upward pressure on the price of other PVW's, which in turn puts similar upward pressure on other premium bourbon prices, which in turn puts marginal, slow, but cumulatively significant upward pressure on non-premium offerings. Money, and even particular purchases, are existentially inter-connected with other money and other purchases; no transaction ever takes place in a vacuum.

    Now, clearly, one more $400 flip is a drop in the bucket. And of course, one person resisting does nothing to stop the other X thousand bottle owners from flipping; it's going to happen anyway. But in so far as one action contributes to a larger pattern, one $400 flip is part of the problem.
    Last edited by CoMobourbon; 04-07-2013 at 19:06.
    I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different.
    ― Kurt Vonnegut

  5. #15
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    Re: Need Opinions - 2011 PVW 15 vs. 4RSmBLE2012

    Quote Originally Posted by CoMobourbon View Post
    I both agree and disagree. I agree in that, yeah, it's not THAT big a deal - it's just bourbon, no lives are at stake here, its not like we are ruining the lives of some 3rd world laborers by using this product, etc. I also agree with your conclusion - I mean, I might / probably would just do it.

    But I disagree with the premise that this decision only involves two bottles of bourbon. Because when flippers can complete $400 dollars exchanges for highly desirable stuff, that unquestionably has a subtle-but-radical ripple effect on the bourbon market as a whole. More specifically, it puts upward pressure on the price of other PVW's, which in turn puts similar upward pressure on other premium bourbon prices, which in turn puts marginal, slow, but cumulatively significant upward pressure on non-premium offerings. Money, and even particular purchases, are existentially inter-connected with other money and other purchases; no transaction ever takes place in a vacuum.

    Now, clearly, one more $400 flip is a drop in the bucket. And of course, one person resisting does nothing to stop the other X thousand bottle owners from flipping; it's going to happen anyway. But in so far as one action contributes to a larger pattern, one $400 flip is part of the problem.
    I don't buy VW bourbons and I don't care what people are asking or selling it for so yes, for me it is soley about two bottles of bourbon. He intends on drinking it so his only consideration IMO is which bottle does he enjoy more.
    You can find me in chat most nights on days ending with the letter y!

  6. #16
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    Re: Need Opinions - 2011 PVW 15 vs. 4RSmBLE2012

    Quote Originally Posted by CoMobourbon View Post
    I both agree and disagree. I agree in that, yeah, it's not THAT big a deal - it's just bourbon, no lives are at stake here, its not like we are ruining the lives of some 3rd world laborers by using this product, etc. I also agree with your conclusion - I mean, I might / probably would just do it.

    But I disagree with the premise that this decision only involves two bottles of bourbon. Because when flippers can complete $400 dollars exchanges for highly desirable stuff, that unquestionably has a subtle-but-radical ripple effect on the bourbon market as a whole. More specifically, it puts upward pressure on the price of other PVW's, which in turn puts similar upward pressure on other premium bourbon prices, which in turn puts marginal, slow, but cumulatively significant upward pressure on non-premium offerings. Money, and even particular purchases, are existentially inter-connected with other money and other purchases; no transaction ever takes place in a vacuum.

    Now, clearly, one more $400 flip is a drop in the bucket. And of course, one person resisting does nothing to stop the other X thousand bottle owners from flipping; it's going to happen anyway. But in so far as one action contributes to a larger pattern, one $400 flip is part of the problem.
    That economics lesson made me reach for some rye. Thank you for that.

  7. #17
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    Re: Need Opinions - 2011 PVW 15 vs. 4RSmBLE2012

    Quote Originally Posted by hectic1 View Post
    We're talking about a bottle of bourbon here...it's not a kidney. If you feel that you're going to enjoy drinking one over the other that is all that should matter. It's not a $400 bottle if you're not willing to pay it...it's whatever you paid vs whatever he paid for it at the store as resale value shouldn't even be considered unless you plan on selling it. I would happily trade a 2011 PVW15 for a FRLE SmB 2012 as I think the FR's is a better bourbon...now if you were asking for a 2009 or earlier PVW15 I might have a different answer.
    I disagree with this.

    There are two questions to be dealt with here.

    The first question is the moralistic question of whether one should trade with a flipper or not.

    The second question is the practical question of what constitutes a "fair" trade in this case. IMHO the retail value is relatively meaningless in answering this question. If the flipper is going to turn around and sell this for $400, then it is a very poor trade to straight up trade the PVW for the 4R. Even if you subjectively evaluate the 4 Roses as a superior bourbon, you have to consider the scarcity and resale value in making the trade. If the OP decides it is worth trading, he should absolutely do his best to drive a hard bargain and get as much from the flipper as he can.

  8. #18
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    Re: Need Opinions - 2011 PVW 15 vs. 4RSmBLE2012

    Quote Originally Posted by nd2005 View Post
    I disagree with this.

    There are two questions to be dealt with here.

    The first question is the moralistic question of whether one should trade with a flipper or not.

    The second question is the practical question of what constitutes a "fair" trade in this case. IMHO the retail value is relatively meaningless in answering this question. If the flipper is going to turn around and sell this for $400, then it is a very poor trade to straight up trade the PVW for the 4R. Even if you subjectively evaluate the 4 Roses as a superior bourbon, you have to consider the scarcity and resale value in making the trade. If the OP decides it is worth trading, he should absolutely do his best to drive a hard bargain and get as much from the flipper as he can.
    One could venture to guess that he paid less for the PVW15 then the "flipper" did for the FRLE SmB 2012. Both are hard to find and one could argue that the FR is more sought after by hardcore bourbon drinkers then the 2011 PVW15 is. We all know that the PVW15 is BT juice that will be replicated by subsiquent years...it's not the pre 2009 bottles that had SW juice in them that can't be replicated.
    You can find me in chat most nights on days ending with the letter y!

  9. #19
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    Re: Need Opinions - 2011 PVW 15 vs. 4RSmBLE2012

    I disagree with the proposition that after-market sales significantly modify the primary bourbon market. I also see no evil in after-market sales, they provide market liquidity and often prove the greater-fool proposition of bubble economics. There is no moral issue here, that's pure poppycock.
    Last edited by MauiSon; 04-07-2013 at 20:18.

  10. #20
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    Re: Need Opinions - 2011 PVW 15 vs. 4RSmBLE2012

    Quote Originally Posted by hectic1 View Post
    One could venture to guess that he paid less for the PVW15 then the "flipper" did for the FRLE SmB 2012. Both are hard to find and one could argue that the FR is more sought after by hardcore bourbon drinkers then the 2011 PVW15 is. We all know that the PVW15 is BT juice that will be replicated by subsiquent years...it's not the pre 2009 bottles that had SW juice in them that can't be replicated.

    My only point is that ignoring the resale value makes the OP a foolish trader. The quality of the bourbon has no place in the discussion. It should all be about how much the OP can get out of the trade. A straight up trade is likely not the best the OP can do off of this flipper.

 

 

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