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Thread: Rye Conundrum

  1. #71
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    Re: Rye Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by callmeox View Post
    I asked Jim Rutledge about making the classic Four Roses bourbon from the post prohibition era and he said that it wasn't possible due to unavoidable mutation in the yeast strain.
    On the other end of the scale, and teetering precariously off the topic of rye: Four Roses has been made in the Old Prentice/Old Joe plant since, if I recall correctly, the late 1950s. (Post-Prohibition Four Roses was made at the old A. Ph. Stitzel plant on Story Ave in Lousiville, which Frankfort Distillers bought from Stitzel-Weller when it became surplus.)

    Old Joe was built in 1910, but I found an ad in a 1904 issue of The Wine and Spirits Journal for Old Joe from before that facility was built, and it proudly proclaims "No jug yeast" without explaining why that would be beneficial. (I'm attaching it, but the clip from Google Books is small.)

    oldjoe.png
    Michael Shoshani - Old No. 8 on the Straightbourbon.com forums

  2. #72
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    Re: Rye Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiserhog View Post
    I have heard that Rittenhouse is more in line with Eastern Pennsylvania or Philadelphia Rye which is more akin but not the same as Maryland style. As for Monongahela Rye, I am not sure if anyone has approximated it yet. Maybe Bulleit or Dickel Rye, anything distilled by LDI. Surely, when Beam bought Old Overholt there were some of the old Monongahela recipes included in the purchase price. Old Overholt tastes like Jim Beam, only with percentage of Rye and Corn in the mashbill reversed. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it. I suspect it is not true to the original Old Overholt.

    I have read the mashbill for Monongahela Rye was 80% rye and 20% malted rye. Interesting stuff.
    Obviously, an overbroad statement by me. I was mistaken. Still, it seems difficult to resurrect old recipe. Wasn't it Seagrams that had that 80/20 mashbill?

  3. #73
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    Re: Rye Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiserhog View Post
    Obviously, an overbroad statement by me. I was mistaken. Still, it seems difficult to resurrect old recipe. Wasn't it Seagrams that had that 80/20 mashbill?
    In its Indiana plant, Seagram's at one time had a mashbill of 95% rye and 5% malted rye. That 5% was changed to malted barley before Seagram shut down and the plant became LDI/MGPI. (How much things change: 20 years ago Jim Murray lamented that this particular rye was never made available as a straight. Today, it's well-nigh inescapable.)
    Michael Shoshani - Old No. 8 on the Straightbourbon.com forums

  4. #74
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    Re: Rye Conundrum

    Among others yes, but the Seagrams version was a good one that got mutated by the accountants to 90/10 and finally 95/5 where it is today.
    We're Bourbon Geeks, it's who we are, it's what we do.

  5. #75
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    Re: Rye Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiserhog View Post
    Obviously, an overbroad statement by me. I was mistaken. Still, it seems difficult to resurrect old recipe. Wasn't it Seagrams that had that 80/20 mashbill?
    Overbroad statements can be a great starting point for discussion.

    Historical whiskey has been an interest to me. I have tasted only three historical rye. One was an 18yo made before prohibition and sold as medicinal (Doughertys , pic in my avatar). It was very good and the closest of todays rye I thought was Vintage 23 from a few years back. The other was Mt Vernon, a PA rye distilled '37 bottled '42, bonded. It was quite unique and I can't think of anything currently made that is similar. I still have an unopened bottle of that, and one day will need to revisit it. The third was the first edition of 13yo VanWFR. While not technically of great vintage, it could currently be considered a modern classic.

    Cheers

    RW
    Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most




  6. #76
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    Re: Rye Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by RWBadley View Post
    Overbroad statements can be a great starting point for discussion.

    Historical whiskey has been an interest to me. I have tasted only three historical rye. One was an 18yo made before prohibition and sold as medicinal (Doughertys , pic in my avatar). It was very good and the closest of todays rye I thought was Vintage 23 from a few years back. The other was Mt Vernon, a PA rye distilled '37 bottled '42, bonded. It was quite unique and I can't think of anything currently made that is similar. I still have an unopened bottle of that, and one day will need to revisit it. The third was the first edition of 13yo VanWFR. While not technically of great vintage, it could currently be considered a modern classic.

    Cheers

    RW
    Thanks for the kind words. I developed an interest in Rye when I saw a Youtube video of a winter float trip that passed by the Old Overholt Broad Ford Distillery. A massive complex that has been completely abandoned, but still standing. I found it very haunting. I realized that Rye Whiskey was a major industry in this country. In fact, for a long time the biggest commercial whiskey industry until Kentucky and Bourbon took over.

    I find it very sad that prohibition killed a very important part of the economic and social fabric of this country.

  7. #77
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    Re: Rye Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiserhog View Post
    Thanks for the kind words. I developed an interest in Rye when I saw a Youtube video of a winter float trip that passed by the Old Overholt Broad Ford Distillery. A massive complex that has been completely abandoned, but still standing. I found it very haunting. I realized that Rye Whiskey was a major industry in this country. In fact, for a long time the biggest commercial whiskey industry until Kentucky and Bourbon took over.

    I find it very sad that prohibition killed a very important part of the economic and social fabric of this country.
    And yet thankful to the people that saw fit to keep it alive. A toast to them.
    Peggy: Look Al, the rubes think I'm sexy!
    Al: So would I if I had whiskey for breakfast.

  8. #78
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    Re: Rye Conundrum

    No jug yeast meant IMO that they were doing the older form of sour mashing, where a portion of the ferment was added to a subsequent one or possibly microorganisms resident in fermentation vessels achieved the fermentation. Over the years here, and on the other board, these variations on what is known as sour mashing today were discussed.

    Gary

  9. #79
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    Re: Rye Conundrum

    Could it be they were suggesting their production methods were superior by using consistent modern commercially prepared dry yeast.
    We're Bourbon Geeks, it's who we are, it's what we do.

  10. #80
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    Re: Rye Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by squire View Post
    Could it be they were suggesting their production methods were superior by using consistent modern commercially prepared dry yeast.
    In 1904? I'd doubt it. Compressed cake yeast was barely off the ground. Maybe Old Joe was a sweet mash?
    Michael Shoshani - Old No. 8 on the Straightbourbon.com forums

 

 

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