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  1. #21
    Trippah and Admin
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    Re: Four Kings Bourbon Whiskey

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
    Hey Dave, Corsair Andrew here.


    The barrels of the Four Kings collab that were decanted on Monday were all filled with the same four grain bourbon. The bottled stuff is, per the BAM, TTB regs, and tradition, a bourbon. Weird thanks to the smoke, but labeled truthfully and properly.


    As a point of interest there are some weird rules at play outside of your worry. The Four Kings stuff cannot be labeled a "straight" bourbon regardless of age because the production happened in multiple states. It cannot be a "blended" bourbon - which I would prefer - because a blended bourbon is a blend of straight bourbons, not just bourbons. At least, so reads the BAM and so states the TTB.
    Thanks for chiming in here, we appreciate the input. I have some comments and a few questions for you.

    The reason that it can't be labeled as a straight bourbon is that there's a non-bourbon component whiskey. It also can't be a blend of straight whiskies as they all need to be of the same type (though this wasn't your claim).


    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
    I will say, though, that you are off on expecting a bourbon to be the final recipe pre-barrel. I expect you've had a healthy number of bourbons cross your lips that were high-corn bourbons mixed post-decant with new-oak aged rye or new-oak aged wheat whiskey. It's not uncommon.
    If it is common, let us in on the secret. Which distilleries release a product under a bourbon label that contains straight wheat or straight rye? That's something that would be of great interest in the enthusiast community.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
    I do respect holding distillers to account for deceptive practices. In this instance, I would suggest you think again about who is involved with this collab. Three of the four distilleries involved sit on the ACDA Ethics committee, which is tasked with helping the craft industry cope with deceptive and poorly labeled products. All the distilleries involved have been on the forefront of being open about process and product, pushing boundaries, and setting examples to counter those entities I think we all can agree are not on the level.


    More practically, there's less than a thousand bottles of this whiskey, and it would sell out with any class and type label at twice the price it will be on shelves. There is no economic or marketing point to mislabeling the juice. This is a product done for fun and mutual respect, which I think is worthy of support.
    The intentions are great, but what enthusiasts want is accuracy. Getting jammed up by NDP's is one thing, but it's really not something that I expected from micros.

    So, to be clear, are you saying that you can mix any of your other whiskies with distillate from a bourbon mash and, as long as you only put a little in, you can still call it bourbon and not bourbon with xxxxxxx like Red Stag and the others?

    So,

    85% high corn bourbon and 15% quinoa whiskey = bourbon?
    85% high corn bourbon and 15% smoked straight wheat = bourbon?
    85% high corn bourbon and 15% ryemageddon = bourbon?

    I've understood the use of the term "four grain" in bourbon parlance as either a bourbon mash with two flavor grains or a marriage of a wheated bourbon and a rye bourbon. You're using the term to describe a bourbon mash (of what I assume is ryed) combined with a straight wheat whiskey to attain the 4 grains. Is this correct?

    I still believe that the product is mislabeled as a bourbon and I hope the TTB can address it, regardless of the number of bottles in the run. Honestly, I find the "it's just a small run, regardless" attitude to be dangerous. More water in my bourbon is not what I'm looking for, and watering down the bourbon class type can only lead to more strangeness down the road.
    My name is Joel Goodson. I deal in human fulfillment.
    I grossed over eight thousand dollars in one night. Time of your life, huh kid?

  2. #22
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    Re: Four Kings Bourbon Whiskey

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
    Hey Dave, Corsair Andrew here.
    I will say, though, that you are off on expecting a bourbon to be the final recipe pre-barrel. I expect you've had a healthy number of bourbons cross your lips that were high-corn bourbons mixed post-decant with new-oak aged rye or new-oak aged wheat whiskey.

    What the hell does that mean???
    The liver is evil. It must be punished...

  3. #23
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    Re: Four Kings Bourbon Whiskey

    It means somebody needs to start dropping dimes, or else they're full of beans.

  4. #24
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    Re: Four Kings Bourbon Whiskey

    Andrew, I appreciate your response, and you know I have nothing but respect for your operation (in spite of my snark), but I too am confused by the assertion that adding "new oak" rye or wheat to bourbons before bottling is a common practice. This is the first I have ever heard of this and if it's true, that's quite a bombshell to drop.
    Last edited by Josh; 04-02-2014 at 17:46.
    bibamus, moriendum est
    Sipology Blog

  5. #25
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    Re: Four Kings Bourbon Whiskey

    I'm just going to sit back and enjoy a nice Knob Creek Smoked Maple Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey (with natural flavors) old fashioned.




    Maybe "enjoy" is a bit too strong, but it's not terrible with bacon and waffles for dinner.
    "Unless it survived a tornado, weathered a snow storm in Scotland, and then spent a year on boat before returning home, I'm not really interested."

  6. #26
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    Re: Four Kings Bourbon Whiskey

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    Andrew, I appreciate your response, and you know I have nothing but respect for your operation (in spite of my snark), but I too am confused by the assertion that adding "new oak" rye or wheat to bourbons before bottling is a common practice. This is the first I have ever heard of this and if it's true, that's quite a bombshell to drop.
    Agree, love that you came on here to discuss the issue (really!), but this practice would be news to all of us and I believe contrary to the CFR.
    Epicurean in the ATL - Atlanta-Based Food, Whiskey & Cocktail Blog

  7. #27
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    Re: Four Kings Bourbon Whiskey

    I asked Bernie Lubbers on Twitter if Heaven Hill finishes bourbon with wheat or rye whiskey and I got this response:

    HH or NO one does or can. You can't mingle bourbon w/ any other style of whiskey & call it Brbn by law...
    Lucy, you got some splainin' to do...
    Last edited by Josh; 04-02-2014 at 19:44.
    bibamus, moriendum est
    Sipology Blog

  8. #28
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    Re: Four Kings Bourbon Whiskey

    Eh that's just the major producers.

    We're talking craft law here.

  9. #29
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    Re: Four Kings Bourbon Whiskey

    Exactly what I was thinking. What is the ACDA ethics committee ruling on on that?
    We're Bourbon Geeks, it's who we are, it's what we do.

  10. #30
    Trippah and Admin
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    Re: Four Kings Bourbon Whiskey

    Quote Originally Posted by MyOldKyDram View Post
    Pretty clearly says wheat whiskey on a couple of places. Bourbon ain't that hard to spell.

    Where's that TTB complaint form, Scott?
    It was beer and trivia night, so I was AFK for a bit.

    TTB contact info is in this post.

    http://www.straightbourbon.com/forum...l=1#post406473
    My name is Joel Goodson. I deal in human fulfillment.
    I grossed over eight thousand dollars in one night. Time of your life, huh kid?

 

 

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