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  1. #191
    Bourbonian of the Year 2002 and Guru
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum View Post
    While maybe not as legally egregious, I think the fake recipe thing bothers me more than the state of distillation issue. I started cooking back when I needed to stand on a chair to be able to flip an egg. I especially enjoyed baking bread, and I remember being amazed how a small tweak in the the ingredients or process could have a huge impact on the finished product. I worked my ass off to perfect my recipe and process, and I am proud of that. I still enjoy commercially made bread, or from from one of those counter top bread making machines, but don't tell me its handmade from your family recipe if its not.
    I feel the same way now that they have paid Deidre Capone to certify their Al Capone story. As a piece of folklore it's fine. I've never heard about a Prohibition-era moonshiner who didn't have an Al Capone story. Although gangsters like Capone have been romanticized, that's real and important history, perhaps more important that the whiskey history, that they are fucking with.

    For those who don't know, Deidre Capone is Al Capone's grand niece. That much is true but the rest of the story she has been trying to sell is 99% bullshit, and she hasn't been very successful at trying to sell it. Her 'memories' of Capone are those of a young child (she was 8 or 9 when he died) living in a house with a man who was dying of syphilis and probably couldn't remember his own name.

    She and Templeton deserve each other.

  2. #192
    Bourbonian of the Year 2002 and Guru
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by sku View Post
    You are correct that rye whiskey cannot have other whiskeys added to it. This was a weird statement. My guess is they are just blending multiple barrels of MGP but who knows.

    I'm not sure what you mean by ingredients augmenting the taste but keep in mind that Templeton is not labeled "straight" so they could lawfully use a small amount of flavoring additives.
    There is no difference between 'rye whiskey' and 'straight rye whiskey' in terms of the addition of additives. Anything that can't be added to 'straight rye whiskey' can't be added to 'rye whiskey' either.

  3. #193
    Mr. Anal Retentive Bourbon Drinker
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by mark fleetwood View Post
    Dissatisfied with the prospect of actually working my last hour of work, I sent emails to two Denver tv stations' investigative reporters and a couple reporters/news desk at The Denver Post. (If I get in trouble with Proximo's legal team, I'm taking you all down with me.)
    Good for you and I thank you for that. I'll put the 1st $100 in your legal defense if it comes to that. Not that I see that happening, we have the truth and the law on our side.

    FYI - I received a reply back from my email to Tin Cup - to summarize they elected to keep lying.

    "Hi Wade,

    Thank you for reaching out. I can guarantee you that the label we submitted to the TTB complies with all federal laws. We are familiar with the federal code you pasted below and always ensure that we follow all TTB regulations for our products. Our goal with TINCUP is to make great tasting whiskey for an affordable price. I hope the liquid can speak for itself and the packaging doesn’t stand in the way of you enjoying what we believe is a great mountain whiskey.


    Cheers,
    Dylan"

  4. #194
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    I wonder if some of these offenders truly believe their lies? Remember the Corsair (or one of those Micros) thread where one of the guys from the distillery chimed in to tell us all that mashbills could be the result of mixing different straight whiskies together to achieve the correct proportions? Misinformation runs rampant.
    I've never tried GTS with any sort of soda. Maybe I'm missing out; but I'm OK with that.

  5. #195
    Trippah and Admin
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by cowdery View Post
    There is no difference between 'rye whiskey' and 'straight rye whiskey' in terms of the addition of additives. Anything that can't be added to 'straight rye whiskey' can't be added to 'rye whiskey' either.
    Not to play Prove Chuck Wrong, but the TTB BAM sez that you can add flavorings to Rye Whiskey but not Straight Rye.


    http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter7.pdf

    So no flavoring in the straight whiskey class types (bourbon, rye, corn, etc) or in the bourbon (not straight) class type.
    My name is Joel Goodson. I deal in human fulfillment.
    I grossed over eight thousand dollars in one night. Time of your life, huh kid?

  6. #196
    Mr. Anal Retentive Bourbon Drinker
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by callmeox View Post
    Not to play Prove Chuck Wrong, but the TTB BAM sez that you can add flavorings to Rye Whiskey but not Straight Rye.


    http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter7.pdf

    So no flavoring in the straight whiskey class types (bourbon, rye, corn, etc) or in the bourbon (not straight) class type.
    I'm not sure and don't want to dig through the actual regs to find out, but the BAM manual does has mistakes - it's a guideline. The real regs and law are in 27 CFR.

  7. #197
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by wadewood View Post
    I'm not sure and don't want to dig through the actual regs to find out, but the BAM manual does has mistakes - it's a guideline. The real regs and law are in 27 CFR.
    But, if it is the book that the TTB uses for approvals they aren't mistakes. It contains TTB interpretations of 27 CFR as it applies to the class types listed.

    Perhaps editing it for the TTB could be your next project.
    My name is Joel Goodson. I deal in human fulfillment.
    I grossed over eight thousand dollars in one night. Time of your life, huh kid?

  8. #198
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by wadewood View Post
    I hope the liquid can speak for itself and the packaging doesn’t stand in the way of you enjoying what we believe is a great mountain whiskey.
    I'm a valley whisky guy myself, you know, where the water is.
    We're Bourbon Geeks, it's who we are, it's what we do.

  9. #199
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by cowdery View Post
    There is no difference between 'rye whiskey' and 'straight rye whiskey' in terms of the addition of additives. Anything that can't be added to 'straight rye whiskey' can't be added to 'rye whiskey' either.
    That's not how I read the regs.

    5.23(a)(2) states: There may be added to any class or type of distilled spirits, without changing the class or type thereof, (i) such harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials as are an essential component part of the particular class or type of distilled spirits to which added, and (ii) harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials such as caramel, straight malt or straight rye malt whiskies, fruit juices, sugar, infusion of oak chips when approved by the Administrator, or wine, which are not an essential component part of the particular distilled spirits to which added, but which are customarily employed therein in accordance with established trade usage, if such coloring, flavoring, or blending materials do not total more than 21⁄2 percent by volume of the finished product.
    (3) “Harmless coloring, flavoring, and blending materials” shall not include (i) any material which would render the product to which it is added an imitation, or (ii) any material, other than caramel, infusion of oak chips, and sugar, in the case of Cognac brandy; or (iii) any material whatsoever in the case of neutral spirits or straight whiskey, except that vodka may be treated with sugar in an amount not to exceed 2 grams per liter and a trace amount of citric acid.

    So the regs make a specific exception for straight whiskey, meaning that other whiskey should be able to include harmless coloring, flavoring and blending materials. The BAM states that bourbon, straight or otherwise, cannot include any such additives which is not in the regs but appears to be the TTB's interpretation, but as Callmeox notes above, the BAM says additives can be used in rye, which appears to be consistent with the regs.
    Last edited by sku; 09-03-2014 at 21:52.

  10. #200

    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by sku View Post
    the regs make a specific exception for straight whiskey, meaning that other whiskey should be able to include harmless coloring, flavoring and blending materials. The BAM states that bourbon, straight or otherwise, cannot include any such additives which is not in the regs but appears to be the TTB's interpretation, but as Callmeox notes above, the BAM says additives can be used in rye, which appears to be consistent with the regs.
    That's my understanding too: no additives to bourbon; no additives to straight whiskey; other whiskeys can have additives.
    Here is something pretty interesting. The way I read it, if the whiskey is over 2 years old and it does not have additives, the bottle "shall" be labeled as "straight." So, for whiskeys over 2 years old, if it contains additives like caramel coloring, it is not straight; if there are no additives, it is straight.
    I read the "shall" in the CFR to mean "is required to," and that this is not an optional thing. If it conforms to the requirements to be a straight whiskey, the label must designate "straight".
    Or to reverse this, if it is over 2 years old and does not say straight, then the whiskey must have additives (or do something else to not conform with the requirements of a straight whiskey).
    Here is some of the text:
    §5.22(b)(3) The standards of identity. Whiskies conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraphs (b)(1)(i) and (ii) of this section, which have been stored in the type of oak containers prescribed, for a period of 2 years or more shall be further designated as “straight”; for example, “straight bourbon whisky”, “straight corn whisky”,

 

 

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