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  1. #21
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    All labels have to be approved by the TTB, right? If so, then isn't it the TTB that should be taken to task for labels not specifying the state in which the spirit was distilled?
    Pete

    I hate scotch.

  2. #22
    Mr. Anal Retentive Bourbon Drinker
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNovaMan View Post
    All labels have to be approved by the TTB, right? If so, then isn't it the TTB that should be taken to task for labels not specifying the state in which the spirit was distilled?
    Did you read my 1st post in this thread? I did take the TTB to task for this and they responding wanting examples.

  3. #23
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Oh, I took that to mean they wanted a list so they could go after the makers of the improperly labeled bourbons. My mistake.
    Pete

    I hate scotch.

  4. #24
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    I thought about that interpretation of the stuff about the ATF officer, Harry, but if you read it carefully, it doesn't give the officer unlimited discretion. It only lets him or her make a tighter restriction in cases where the otherwise okay labeling might be misleading.

    I have a bottle of the Old Scout 14 as well. It's in violation. I don't think this is necessarily a hanging offense, but I agree with Wade that a lot of the Texas NDPs want the public to believe the product is made in Texas, because Texans like that sort of thing.

    This is a good thing to publicize because TTB has been lax about enforcing it but they haven't put out any kind of notice saying they have reinterpreted the rule. The rule stands and the producers should be faulted for not following it and TTB should be faulted for not being vigilant about it.

    I also wonder if MGPI, since they advertise about being a partner in product development with their customers, is irresponsible for not informing all customers outside of Indiana about this requirement.
    Last edited by cowdery; 04-29-2014 at 14:22.

  5. #25
    Mr. Anal Retentive Bourbon Drinker
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    In addition to violating section 5.36 (d) that Chuck posted, I think these also violate section 5.34 (a):

    5.34 Brand names.

    (a) Misleading brand names. No label shall contain any brand name, which, standing alone, or in association with other printed or graphic matter, creates any impression or inference as to the age, origin, identity, or other characteristics of the product unless the appropriate TTB officer finds that such brand name (when appropriately qualified if required) conveys no erroneous impressions as to the age, origin, identity, or other characteristics of the product.

  6. #26
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNovaMan View Post
    Oh, I took that to mean they wanted a list so they could go after the makers of the improperly labeled bourbons. My mistake.
    It sounds like the TTB realized they made some mistakes, and wanted the list so they could correct them. The makers are still at fault for improperly labeled products, although it could be from ignorance as opposed to malicious intent. The TTB should have caught those mistakes earlier, but they still need to be corrected now.
    "Unless it survived a tornado, weathered a snow storm in Scotland, and then spent a year on boat before returning home, I'm not really interested."

  7. #27
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    I believe Traverse City Whiskey Company is also in violation of the state of distillilation rule.
    Last edited by Josh; 04-30-2014 at 07:02. Reason: Nobody cares
    bibamus, moriendum est
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  8. #28
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by wadewood View Post
    Jefferson's Reserve - 14051001000011
    A recently spotted bottle of this has a vertical label on the side which says "Distilled in Indiana. Bottled for McLain & Kyne, Louisville, Kentucky."
    trying to walk a straight line,
    on sour mash and cheap wine

  9. #29
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by wadewood View Post
    In addition to violating section 5.36 (d) that Chuck posted, I think these also violate section 5.34 (a):

    5.34 Brand names.

    (a) Misleading brand names. No label shall contain any brand name, which, standing alone, or in association with other printed or graphic matter, creates any impression or
    inference as to the age, origin, identity, or other characteristics of the product unless the appropriate TTB officer finds that such brand name (when appropriately qualified if required) conveys no erroneous impressions as to the age, origin, identity, or other characteristics of the product.


    This should apply to Barton and Charter.

  10. #30
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    Re: whiskies that fail to list State of Distillation?

    Quote Originally Posted by cowdery View Post
    I thought about that interpretation of the stuff about the ATF officer, Harry, but if you read it carefully, it doesn't give the officer unlimited discretion. It only lets him or her make a tighter restriction in cases where the otherwise okay labeling might be misleading . . .[snipped the rest]
    Agreed. I was making the best argument I could that some labels missing the state of distillation might not be "intentionally misleading" because the state info is otherwise easily available. An agent might, arguably, so conclude in order to justify internally what looks to me like an unexplainable lack of enforcement action. I haven't been able to find any TTB manuals or policies describing their internal allocations of authority. For example, does the COLA office have any authority on its own to follow up to ensure that the "final" label conforms to the reg, OR is this follow-up only performable by a field agent (and, do they talk to each other)? I'd also like to know how many people staff these functions so I could get a sense of whether they miss things due to volume which has increased substantially over the past few years (wine & beer as well as spirits). As some other SB threads reflected, the COLA reviewers apparently either don't have the authority to approve a "straight" whisky label conditionally; how else could they approve a label for 3-year-old whisky without an age statement? They must have "guessed" that the producer would add "3 yrs. old" by hand if it wasn't 4 yrs. old. After all, there is that language on the COLA approval telling the producer that it is still responsible for complying with all laws and regs when the product actually hits the shelves. OR, did they approve it figuring that the producer knows (or SHOULD know) that an age statement must be added to a "straight" label if its age is under 4 years but also figuring that a field agent to check the actual label when the product hits the shelf because they cannot? Thus, in the case of the missing "state of distillation", perhaps an arguably overworked agent would skip yelling at a producer if that producer clearly and affirmatively was making provenance information easily available otherwise instead of obscuring the source or even making affirmatively misleading statements like "Born in Pennsylvania . . ." (edit - my example, not an actual label best as I know), thus avoiding or at least mitigating any claim of false and misleading statements. I'd go down and ask the TTB "why" some of these comparatively obvious shortcomings go unaddressed, but that's the kind of "How do you decide when to get tough?" question a regulator will refuse to answer because the answer would allow the less careful regulatees to know how to skirt which part of the regs.

    In addition to letting the TTB know about these apparent lapses (by the TTB and the producers), one could copy the Dept. of Treas. Office of Inspector General which, by law, conducts audits and investigations of the TTB's programs and could use such information to determine whether and how well TTB is fulfilling its statutory duties. However, neither the TTB nor the OIG is likely to respond concerning specific cases although the OIG, if it conducted an audit based on the apparent lapses, by law would write a public report containing the facts it found and the recommendations it made to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the TTB's programs.

    Disclosure: I was legal counsel in another agency's OIG for more than a decade. Hence, I ALWAYS copy an agency's OIG with as much info as I can muster whenever I write to an agency (including the same info the OIG got) about an apparent problem I see in regulatory enforcement.
    Last edited by Harry in WashDC; 05-12-2014 at 13:04. Reason: to clarify a quote

 

 

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