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  1. #31
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    Re: Aging bourbon is seconds?

    Danger Will Robinson, danger.
    We're Bourbon Geeks, it's who we are, it's what we do.

  2. #32
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    Jan 2014
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    Washington DC
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    Re: Aging bourbon is seconds?

    Hhhhmm. If it is "aged" in seconds, it still has to spend some time in an oak container (that is, be "stored in oak containers") before it can be called "whisky" (See 27 CFR 5.22(b) below for that and other requirements and some exceptions). I guess it could go into an oak container and then come right back out in order to meet the technical definition of "whisky", provided "stored" means it comes to a full stop (rolling stops are subject to ticketing! ). Similarly, in order to be called "bourbon whisky", it must, among other requirements in 27 CFR 5.22(b)(1) below, be "stored in charred new oak containers". Wonder how long this aged bourbon will spend in those containers? And, once a container is filled, it can't be reused for bourbon. Guess the first fill would be "bourbon", the second and third, etc., would be "whisky".

    To be "straight" whisky or bourbon, it must age in its containers for at least two years. See 27 CFR 5.22(b)(1)(iii) below.

    So, I guess to be sure I'm buying what I think I'm buying, I'll buy only brands that clearly say "Straight whisky" or "Straight Bourbon" with an age statement (if under 4 years old) or better yet "Bottled in Bond" or bottles with a clear age statement (I didn't copy those regs below, but flash-aged stuff might have problems meeting them, too)).

    In sum, they can make whatever they want, but they shouldn't get to call it "bourbon" or "straight bourbon" or "whisky" or "straight whisky" unless it meets the definitions. Truth in labeling, of course, backed up by the taxing authority.

    Corrections or clarifications of what I wrote above are welcome and encouraged.

    27 CFR 5.22 excerpts follow:
    (b) Class 2; whisky. “Whisky” is an alcoholic distillate from a fermented mash of grain produced at less than 190° proof in such manner that the distillate possesses the taste, aroma, and characteristics generally attributed to whisky, stored in oak containers (except that corn whisky need not be so stored), and bottled at not less than 80° proof, and also includes mixtures of such distillates for which no specific standards of identity are prescribed.
    (ii) “Corn whisky” is whisky produced at not exceeding 160° proof from a fermented mash of not less than 80 percent corn grain, and if stored in oak containers stored at not more than 125° proof in used or uncharred new oak containers and not subjected in any manner to treatment with charred wood; and also includes mixtures of such whisky.
    (iii) Whiskies conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraphs (b)(1)(i) and (ii) of this section, which have been stored in the type of oak containers prescribed, for a period of 2 years or more shall be further designated as “straight”; for example, “straight bourbon whisky”, “straight corn whisky”, and whisky conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraph (b)(1)(i) of this section, except that it was produced from a fermented mash of less than 51 percent of any one type of grain, and stored for a period of 2 years or more in charred new oak containers shall be designated merely as “straight whisky”. No other whiskies may be designated “straight”. “Straight whisky” includes mixtures of straight whiskies of the same type produced in the same State.
    (1)(i) “Bourbon whisky”, “rye whisky”, “wheat whisky”, “malt whisky”, or “rye malt whisky” is whisky produced at not exceeding 160° proof from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley, or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored at not more than 125° proof in charred new oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of the same type.

  3. #33
    Connoisseur
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    Mar 2013
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    Chicago
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    528

    Re: Aging bourbon is seconds?

    Quote Originally Posted by squire View Post
    Ah, what the future holds. I picture a bartender with his fingers resting on a rheostat saying, "You want your Bourbon aged? How many years?"
    Can we make some kind of bartender oath to never to do this?
    Bourbon only requires a glass.

  4. #34
    Trippah and Admin
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    Feb 2008
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    Northeast Ahia
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    4,661

    Re: Aging bourbon is seconds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry in WashDC View Post
    Hhhhmm. If it is "aged" in seconds, it still has to spend some time in an oak container (that is, be "stored in oak containers") before it can be called "whisky" (See 27 CFR 5.22(b) below for that and other requirements and some exceptions). I guess it could go into an oak container and then come right back out in order to meet the technical definition of "whisky", provided "stored" means it comes to a full stop (rolling stops are subject to ticketing! ). Similarly, in order to be called "bourbon whisky", it must, among other requirements in 27 CFR 5.22(b)(1) below, be "stored in charred new oak containers". Wonder how long this aged bourbon will spend in those containers? And, once a container is filled, it can't be reused for bourbon. Guess the first fill would be "bourbon", the second and third, etc., would be "whisky".
    Alchemists like the folks behind Cleveland Whiskey buy very young bourbon on the bulk market that they then subject to their "fast aging" process so it has spent time in the barrel.

    Incidentally, the barrels that are used to ship the bulk purchased spirit are the ones that Cleveland cuts up to use in their process.
    My name is Joel Goodson. I deal in human fulfillment.
    I grossed over eight thousand dollars in one night. Time of your life, huh kid?

  5. #35
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    Jan 2014
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    Washington DC
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    Re: Aging bourbon is seconds?

    Thanks, callmeox. I knew there had to be an angle.

  6. #36
    Disciple
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    Jun 2013
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    NWGA
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    Re: Aging bourbon is seconds?

    As Squire has said "someone will buy it, they always do" and might add some will also enjoy it.

    The more new product introductions we have from new producers is great news as that will mean more availability of other bottles for yours truly.

  7. #37
    Virtuoso
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    Apr 2011
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    Sutton, Massachusetts
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    1,184

    Re: Aging bourbon is seconds?

    What worries me isn't that folks are trying to be innovative (more power to 'em if they can find a market), but that what we've seen from the TTB lately is that we may not be able to rely on "straight", "bottled-in-bond" or anything other descriptor that is supposed to tell us what is in the bottle, at least to some degree.

    Instead of looking for BiB, straight, or anything else, I'll be looking for "Heaven Hill", "Buffalo Trace", "Brown-Forman" etc etc - they may be putting younger whiskey in the bottle, but at least I know it's whiskey.
    Mark

  8. #38
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    Sep 2004
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    Jackson, MS
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    Re: Aging bourbon is seconds?

    And we know where it came from.
    We're Bourbon Geeks, it's who we are, it's what we do.

  9. #39
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    Jun 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
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    321

    Re: Aging bourbon is seconds?

    Ugh. I have this dilemma. I want to try this, and I want to try the Cleveland whiskey too, just so I can try it and see how bad it is. I feel like I can't knock it just yet. I feel like if it tastes good, then I don't really care how the sausage is made. But I'll be damned if I'll pay money for a whole bottle of it. I'm thinking of ordering the smallest sampling possible from the Jack Rose in DC, but part of me doubts that they even carry stuff like this -- the place is too good...

  10. #40
    Advanced Taster
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    Mar 2012
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    Northeast Ohio
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    Re: Aging bourbon is seconds?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmarkle View Post
    Ugh. I have this dilemma. I want to try this, and I want to try the Cleveland whiskey too, just so I can try it and see how bad it is. I feel like I can't knock it just yet. I feel like if it tastes good, then I don't really care how the sausage is made. But I'll be damned if I'll pay money for a whole bottle of it. I'm thinking of ordering the smallest sampling possible from the Jack Rose in DC, but part of me doubts that they even carry stuff like this -- the place is too good...
    If you are ever in the Akron/Cleveland, Ohio area, send me a PM and I'll be happy to pour you as much as you want.....I don't know how else I'm going to get rid of this stuff.

 

 

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