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  1. #11
    Administrator in exile
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    Re: TN whiskey vs. Bourbon

    I know this is very unscientific, but if you go to www.jackdaniels.com and take the online tour, one of the tour guides will tell you that it is the charcoal mellowing that makes JD a Tennesse whisky and not a bourbon.

  2. #12
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    Re: TN whiskey vs. Bourbon

    it is the charcoal mellowing that makes JD a Tennesse whisky and not a bourbon
    Jeff, they've been saying that all along, as part of their marketing pitch (along with any other TN distiller and the US government which gave them their own "appellation"). I'm just trying to find legal evidence that TN whiskey is NOT bourbon. But I think it might be a bourbon, but more specifically a TN whiskey.

  3. #13
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    Re: TN whiskey vs. Bourbon

    >So long as the Lincoln process doesn't remove the percentages
    >described in 5.27 (c)
    >...
    >then I would imagine that JD is a bourbon.

    If you look close at the language, I think the percents only apply
    to "straight" whiskey.

    Thus the percents would determine whether JD is a "straight bourbon whiskey"
    or merely a "bourbon whiskey".



    Looking at the other regulations:

    I'm supposing that charcoal treatment isn't considered "treatment with wood",
    so 5.39(c) doesn't apply.

    I still haven't decided whether JD's charcoal could be considered a
    "flavoring" under 5.23. That's a judgement call, and would be the only
    reason I can think of to disqualify JD from being a bourbon. If the
    process gives the whiskey an "ashy" taste, then it might be adding
    flavor.


    Tim Dellinger

  4. #14
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    Re: TN whiskey vs. Bourbon

    I agree with you, Tim. And I will add two points: 1) The Tennessee whisky makers are trying to set themselves apart from bourbon by not referring to their product as bourbon and, 2) I have seen products (legally) labeled as Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey that state that they are "charcoal filtered".

    A rose by any other name....

    If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

    Tim

  5. #15
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    Re: TN whiskey vs. Bourbon

    No, charcoal filtering does not add any flavoring. It removes impurities.

    Tim

  6. #16
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    Re: TN whiskey vs. Bourbon

    But havent we argued before that the sugar maple charcoal filetering BEFORE aging is a quick fix aginfg process. And wouldnt "aging" constitute adding flavor?? ALso I remember both BT & HH mentioning "neutralized or actualized" charcoal, ie specificall mentioning they make their charcoal not to taste. JD's marketing at least implies their charcoal does.

    TomC

  7. #17
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    Re: TN whiskey vs. Bourbon

    Tim,

    I think the charcoal filtering that KY Straight bourbon Whiskies are refering to is activated charcoal, which AFAIK doesn't impart anything into the whiskey. Sugar Maple Charcoal, again AFAIK, adds a subtle flavor to the finished product.

  8. #18
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    Re: TN whiskey vs. Bourbon

    Thus the percents would determine whether JD is a "straight bourbon whiskey"
    or merely a "bourbon whiskey".

    Is there such a thing as a "bourbon whiskey" that is not a "straight whiskey"? I thought bourbon was a step further down the process, therefore to be a bourbon, it must first be a straight whiskey. Am I mistaken?

  9. #19
    The Boss
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    Re: TN whiskey vs. Bourbon

    Here's an excerpt from the BATF liquor regulations. From section 5.22, this pertains to the identity of "whisky". The entire document has been available here for years. (b)(1)(iii) is the part you are after Jeff.

    b) Class 2; whisky.

    "Whisky" is an alcoholic distillate from a fermented mash of grain produced at less
    than 190 proof in such manner that the distillate possesses the taste, aroma, and
    characteristics generally attributed to whisky, stored in oak containers (except that
    corn whisky need not be so stored), and bottled at not less than 80 proof, and also
    includes mixtures of such distillates for which no specific standards of identity are
    prescribed.

    (1)(i) "Bourbon whisky", "rye whisky", "wheat whisky", "malt whisky", or "rye
    malt whisky" is whisky produced at not exceeding 160 proof from a
    fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley,
    or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored at not more than 125 proof in
    charred new oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of
    the same type.

    (ii) "Corn whisky" is whisky produced at not exceeding 160 proof from a
    fermented mash of not less than 80 percent corn grain, and if stored in oak
    containers stored at not more than 125 proof in used or uncharred new oak
    containers and not subjected in any manner to treatment with charred wood;
    and also includes mixtures of such whisky.

    (iii) Whiskies conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraphs (b)(1)(i)
    and (ii) of this section, which have been stored in the type of oak containers
    prescribed, for a period of 2 years or more shall be further designated as
    "straight"; for example, "straight bourbon whisky", "straight corn whisky", and
    whisky conforming to the standards prescribed in paragraph (b)(1)(i) of this
    section, except that it was produced from a fermented mash of less than 51
    percent of any one type of grain, and stored for a period of 2 years or more in
    charred new oak containers shall be designated merely as "straight whisky".
    No other whiskies may be designated "straight". "Straight whisky" includes
    mixtures of straight whiskies of the same type produced in the same State.

    (2) "Whisky distilled from bourbon (rye, wheat, malt, or rye malt) mash" is whisky
    produced in the United States at not exceeding 160 proof from a fermented
    mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley, or malted rye
    grain, respectively, and stored in used oak containers; and also includes mixtures
    of such whiskies of the same type. Whisky conforming to the standard of identity
    for corn whisky must be designated corn whisky.

    (3) "Light whisky" is whisky produced in the United States at more than 160
    proof, on or after January 26, 1968, and stored in used or uncharred new oak
    containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies. If "light whisky" is mixed
    with less than 20 percent of straight whisky on a proof gallon basis, the mixture
    shall be designated "blended light whisky" (light whisky--a blend).

    (4) "Blended whisky" (whisky--a blend) is a mixture which contains straight
    whisky or a blend of straight whiskies at not less than 20 percent on a proof
    gallon basis, excluding alcohol derived from added harmless coloring, flavoring
    or blending materials, and, separately, or in combination, whisky or neutral
    spirits. A blended whisky containing not less than 51 percent on a proof gallon
    basis of one of the types of straight whisky shall be further designated by that
    specific type of straight whisky; for example, "blended rye whisky" (rye whisky--a
    blend).

    (5) (i) "A blend of straight whiskies" (blended straight whiskies) is a mixture of
    straight whiskies which does not conform to the standard of identify for "straight
    whisky." Products so designated may contain harmless coloring, flavoring, or
    blending materials as set forth in 27 CFR 5.23(a).

    (ii) "A blend of straight whiskies" (blended straight whiskies) consisting
    entirely of one of the types of straight whisky, and not conforming to the
    standard for straight whisky, shall be further designated by that specific type
    of straight whisky; for example, "a blend of straight rye whiskies" (blended
    straight rye whiskies). "A blend of straight whiskies" consisting entirely of one
    of the types of straight whisky shall include straight whisky of the same type
    which was produced in the same State or by the same proprietor within the
    same State, provided that such whisky contains harmless coloring, flavoring,
    or blending materials as stated in 27 CFR 5.23(a).

    (iii) The harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials allowed under this
    section shall not include neutral spirits or alcohol in their original state.
    Neutral spirits or alcohol may only appear in a "blend of straight whiskies" or
    in a "blend of straight whiskies consisting entirely of one of the types of
    straight whisky" as a vehicle for recognized flavoring of blending material.

    (6) "Spirit whisky" is a mixture of neutral spirits and not less than 5 percent on a
    proof gallon basis of whisky, or straight whisky, or straight whisky and whisky, if
    the straight whisky component is less than 20 percent on a proof gallon basis.

    (7) "Scotch whisky" is whisky which is a distinctive product of Scotland,
    manufactured in Scotland in compliance with the laws of the United Kingdom
    regulating the manufacture of Scotch whisky for consumption in the United
    Kingdom: Provided, That if such product is a mixture of whiskies, such mixture is
    "blended Scotch whisky" (Scotch whisky--a blend).

    (8) "Irish whisky" is whisky which is a distinctive product of Ireland, manufactured
    either in the Republic of Ireland or in Northern Ireland, in compliance with their
    laws regulating the manufacture of Irish whisky for home consumption: Provided,
    That if such product is a mixture of whiskies, such mixture is "blended Irish
    whisky" (Irish whisky--a blend).

    (9) "Canadian whisky" is whisky which is a distinctive product of Canada,
    manufactured in Canada in compliance with the laws of Canada regulating the
    manufacture of Canadian whisky for consumption in Canada: Provided, That if
    such product is a mixture of whiskies, such mixture is "blended Canadian whisky"
    (Canadian whisky--a blend).

  10. #20
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    Re: TN whiskey vs. Bourbon

    Thanks Jim, I guess I was mistaken. Hell, I guess I don't know my Tenneess whiskey very well Oh well, I can live with that

 

 

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