Welcome to the Straightbourbon.com Forums.
Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 46
  1. #1
    Connoisseur
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    857

    Re: Empty Bottles Support Group

    The first empty bottle of the Willetts Estate 22yo Rye...Tear...

    BTW, some folks are curious about the origine of this whiskey...if I havent posted this already on the forum...to the best of my recollection, Drew described it as; Bernheim, DSP KY #1, Crem of Kentucky, Rye mash bill.

    Ya'all know Drew dontcha...he's the guy who made all this happen!
    Last edited by dougdog; 11-30-2006 at 18:23.

  2. #2
    Administrator in exile
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    3,904

    Re: Empty Bottles Support Group

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdog View Post
    The first empty bottle of the Willetts Estate 22yo Rye...Tear...

    BTW, some folks are curious about the origine of this whiskey...if I havent posted this already on the forum...to the best of my recollection, Drew described it as; Bernheim, DSP KY #1, Crem of Kentucky, rye mash bill.

    Ya'all know Drew dontcha...he's the guy who made all this happen!
    Wasn't COK a bourbon mashbill? Made by Ancient Age? I assumed it was distilled in Frankfort, but maybe it was purchased?
    Simplicity is the essence of universality - MK Ghandi

  3. #3
    Connoisseur
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    857

    Re: Empty Bottles Support Group

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff View Post
    Wasn't COK a bourbon mashbill? Made by Ancient Age? I assumed it was distilled in Frankfort, but maybe it was purchased?
    This might be better answered by Drew, Mike or Chuck.

    My understanding was that they had mash bills for COK Rye and COK Bourbon. (It's not known to me that there was ever a product on the store shelf called Cream of Kentucky Straight Rye)

    Cream of Kentucky was at one time a Schenley product.

  4. #4
    Administrator in exile
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    3,904

    Re: Empty Bottles Support Group

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdog View Post
    This might be better answered by Drew, Mike or Chuck.

    My understanding was that they had mash bills for COK Rye and COK Bourbon. (It's not known to me that there was ever a product on the store shelf called Cream of Kentucky Straight Rye)

    Cream of Kentucky was at one time a Schenley product.
    Thanks Doug, I hadn't considered the possibility of a COK RYE, but I'm still confused about the DSP #1.
    Simplicity is the essence of universality - MK Ghandi

  5. #5
    Administrator in exile
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    3,904

    Re: Empty Bottles Support Group

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff View Post
    Thanks Doug, I hadn't considered the possibility of a COK RYE, but I'm still confused about the DSP #1.
    This post

    may provide some explaination.
    Simplicity is the essence of universality - MK Ghandi

  6. #6
    Connoisseur
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    857

    Re: Empty Bottles Support Group

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff View Post
    Thanks Doug, I hadn't considered the possibility of a COK RYE, but I'm still confused about the DSP #1.
    Over time, with the different corporate buyouts and company takeovers, plant closeures, shadow distilling and bulk market purchases/transfers it will take a historian or someone with direct knowledge to "know" the detail.

    It is just good to drink...no matter the original source.

    Like Neal said...It's the juice in the botttle that counts....and now, the first bottle is empty!

    I'm sure glad there is a support group out there for folks like us...
    Last edited by dougdog; 11-30-2006 at 18:24.

  7. #7
    Connoisseur
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    857

    Re: Empty Bottles Support Group

    Jeff, in that same thread, Chuck wrote the following;

    I have some information which leads me to believe that except for Rittenhouse 21, made by Heaven Hill, the other old straight ryes on the market, such as Hirsch 21, are all Kulsveen bottlings (that part's true) and all came from the rye whiskey made by Charlie Medley in Owensboro, which has most famously been sold as Van Winkle Family Reserve Rye.

    But Mike Veach tells me some of Van Winkle's rye has been Cream of Kentucky Rye, made at old Bernheim, and most if not all of the rye Kulsveen is selling now is that same stock.

    Now I come across this thread and Ken Weber has made it clear that Cream of Kentucky Bourbon was owned by Schenley, made at BT when it was a Schenley distillery, and the brand name is owned by BT still.

    That does not in any way mean a rye whiskey, intended to be sold as COK rye, may not have been made at Bernheim, which also was owned by Schenley.

    Does anyone have any confirming, contradictory or simply more information about any of this?
    __________________
    Chuck Cowdery
    "Whiskey Don't Keep."

  8. #8
    Bourbonian of the Year 2002 and Guru
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    12,570

    Re: Empty Bottles Support Group

    I now know a little bit more about this than I did then.

    Schenley (today's Diageo) used to own both Buffalo Trace and Bernheim (DSP-1) and especially for a minor brand such as COK, they might have used whiskey from either plant for any given batch of product. COK had both a bourbon and a rye. It just so happens that the barrels of COK bourbon that have emerged recently were made at BT and the barrels of COK rye were made at Bernheim (pre-reconstruction).

    Part of the confusion comes from calling it COK. Calling it COK just means it was made with the intention of it being bottled as COK. When the time came there wasn't sufficient demand for it so it wasn't bottled. If Buffalo Trace has any COK rye from the same era, whether made by them or made at Bernheim, it's probably already been bottled as Sazerac.

    COK was an old Schenley brand and if Sazerac owns it now, it came into their possession probably via Ferdie Falk's Age International, which was the owner of BT in between Schenley and Sazerac. Falk was an old Schenley guy and even after Schenley sold BT, the two distilleries sometimes did contract work for each other.

    It just so happens that all of the old rye that KBD still has in barrels is from this DSP-1 stock. The Charlie Medley rye has, apparently, all been bottled. The Van Winkle rye is mostly Charlie Medley rye but was switched at some point to the DSP-1 rye.

    Most of the above is pretty solid fact, I think. This next is conjecture. What I believe happened is that Diageo had that rye in its inventory, probably at Old Fitzgerald, and was selling it to Julian. After it passed its 13th birthday (or thereabouts) Julian decided he didn't want any more of it. Diageo then sold the remainder of it to KBD, who has sold it to Preiss (for the Hirsch Rye), Doug, LeNell and others. KBD still has some left, but there can't be very much.
    Last edited by cowdery; 11-30-2006 at 18:19. Reason: to make it even more brilliant.

  9. #9

    Re: Empty Bottles Support Group

    Quote Originally Posted by cowdery View Post
    ...the barrels of COK rye were made at Bernheim (pre-reconstruction)...
    ...If Buffalo Trace has any COK rye from the same era, whether made by them or made at Bernheim, it's probably already been bottled as Sazerac...
    ...It just so happens that all of the old rye that KBD still has in barrels is from this DSP-1 stock...
    Try Saz 18 next to the Michter's 10yo Single Barrel rye (bottled by KBD) sometime.
    (I promise, this the closest I'll come to saying, 'I told you so'.)
    Tim

  10. #10
    Administrator in exile
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    3,904

    Re: Empty Bottles Support Group

    Good discussion merits its own thread.
    Simplicity is the essence of universality - MK Ghandi

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Willett Family Reserve 22yo Single Barrel
    By doubleblank in forum Other American Whiskey Tastings
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 11-21-2006, 07:25
  2. Origin bourbon
    By ThomasH in forum General Bourbon Discussion
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-08-2006, 22:23
  3. Vintage Rye 21 & Rittenhouse Rye 21
    By OscarV in forum Other American Whiskey Tastings
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-20-2006, 18:19
  4. Origin of the Charred Barrel ??
    By bandit in forum History
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 07-05-2005, 18:08
  5. Even Kulsveen / Willett
    By bourbonmed in forum General Bourbon Discussion
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 06-29-2002, 05:46

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Back to top