What Bourbon did you find recently that would make a great Christmas gift for you?

[smokinjoe]

I can help you cross one off your list: Old Pogue. You might say it's the only whiskey those folks don't make, as it's a KBD bottling of Heaven Hill whiskey.

No need to take the Old Pogue off your list. Regardless of where it originates, it is fine whiskey in my opinion, and the Pogue family are fine people. I find Old Pogue to have a very nice butterscotch taste that I find very appealing.

Take your shot at it this Christmas if you like, I think you will enjoy it. If it doesn't agree with you, then you at least know for yourself.
Cheers!

JOE

[cowdery]

Although, yes, Van Winkle doesn't distill, and people should know that, they get a bit of a pass because Julian has a terrific palate and does an exceptional job of selecting outstanding barrels. He also offers extra-aged whiskeys of a quality that simply is not duplicated by any other producer.

Even as Van Winkle evolves into a "brand" of Buffalo Trace, I think that quality will remain. While it's logical to assume that producers who sell bulk whiskey might tend to hold back their best stock, I think Van Winkle is positioned to be a showcase for some of BT's best.

Julian may be good, but he's not infallible. He essentially rejected as too old the rye whiskey for which Doug, LeNell and others are getting rave reviews. Which is to say that KBD and similar companies have their role to play too.

I agree that the Pogues and KBD did a good job putting that product together and that the Pogues are very nice people. They do have a real family history in the business and it's nice, for that reason, to see their name on a bottle. I wish them all the best and always have. I never meant to suggest, and don't think I did suggest, that it wasn't a very fine bottle of whiskey. It is; though I also agree it is over-priced for what it is.

However, if they are leading people to believe that they "made" it, in the way most people understand that term, then that's wrong and I believe it's a service to let the uninformed know the real facts.

If we, as consumers, put a premium on honesty, we will get more honesty. If we, as consumers, put a premium on "real" distillers, maybe we will get more of those too.

[Hedmans Brorsa]

If we, as consumers, put a premium on honesty, we will get more honesty. If we, as consumers, put a premium on "real" distillers, maybe we will get more of those too.

I couldn´t agree more.

[nor02lei]

If we, as consumers, put a premium on honesty, we will get more honesty. If we, as consumers, put a premium on "real" distillers, maybe we will get more of those too.

That goes for me as well!

Leif

[Rughi]

That goes for me as well!

Leif

And for me!!!

And furthermore, the more we show a willingness to buy different expressions of a distillery's product (even if the expressions come via an independent bottler), the more likely we may get the distillery to release more expressions of the products in their warehouses.

The way I see it, HH was pulled (or emboldened) into releasing their excellent 21 year Rittenhouse because Julian and KBD were having so much success selling excellent bulk market products. If I understand the history of Single Malt, it was the independent bottlers who were virtually the only source for most single malts until the distilleries saw that the malts they were blending away could be a lucrative niche market. And, until the explosion of microbreweries, the American major beer labels were stodgily offering ever more watered down beers as innovative (less filling! no bitter beer face!) but are now trying to change their corporate cultures enough that they can react with beers that step _part of the way_ towards the excitement the microbrewers have created.

I think in Bourbon that the independent bottlers are more leading the way towards more and better choices for enthusiasts than foisting off generic crap on an unsuspecting public (it takes a lot of marketing muscle to do that on the huge scale of America, so two or three majors have that market share largely cornered).

Pogue would be a good, and distinct, bourbon if HH had decided to release that profile themselves (but they didn't). Old Bardstown NAS has a delightful play between a recognizable young HH-style menthol/clove and a very old murky/dry wood that tastes of blending in small amounts of much older product (no major distillery is interested in using that concept so aggressively, as far as I know). And, for every major distiller who sees fit to offer a product such as Booker or Stagg (or 4-grain or BTEC), there are five distinctive bottlings of independent bottler products such as BMH, Vintage Bourbon, or ORVW. Enthusiasts have responded to these releases and independent bottlers have largely created the market for the most exciting products available today.

If we, as consumers, put a premium on innovative and more varied niche products, we will get more exciting niche products. If we, as consumers, show support to the little guys who are trying to break into a multi-national corporation's industry, maybe we will get more "real" distillers too.

Let's get behind the independent bottlers leading the way AND the distillers who can see their way to follow the path!

Roger

[OscarV]

George T Stagg, haven't had before this year.
I am into one now, the 2004 release.
From what I have hear the original 2002 release was the best.
So my answer would be the 2002 release of GTS.

[cowdery]

Roger (Rughi),

What you said is exactly what I meant when I wrote, "KBD and similar companies have their role to play too." You described exactly the role of independent bottlers.

Unfortunately, one difference between independent bottlers of single malts and independent bottlers of American straights is that the UK bottlers disclose the distillery. In fact, that's their major selling point. In the US, they don't, and frequently invent some fictional pedigree instead.

The two marketplaces are different and there are some good reasons why US independents won't, and often can't, disclose the source of their spirit, but that's the one big gripe I have with US practice.

Glad I've got the Swedish contingent onboard, though.

[Peter_Pogue]

I wholeheartedly agree with many of the posts in this thread. We have never tried to hide the source of our product and we certainly have never tried to mislead anyone by calling ourselves "The Old Pogue Distillery". Our name and our product were chosen for heritage and historical purposes, not to attempt to imply that we somehow distill our brand. We chose who blends our product very carefully as we feel they are the best and well respected and were the perfect match for what we are trying to do; namely, have more of the original Kentucky families who developed the Kentucky bourbon industry involved in the industry once again. As most know it is very easy to know who and who does not actually distill, and that issue itself has been the subject of many threads here. Honesty should be a premium and there certainly could be quite a bit of "outing" for those who cannot trace their product history.
All of us would like to see more "distillers" but the reality is it is nearly cost prohibitive until our government eases restrictions on microdistilling. Continuing to put a premium on "real" distillers will only lead to less innovative products and less overall selection. Julian, KBD, and others like them have led the way in creating products whose taste profiles are unmatched in quality which in turn has made the "real" distillers attempt to compete at that level of quality. That seems to be good for everyone. Roger's points on this issue echo my sentiments exactly.

Peter Pogue

[CrispyCritter]

Unfortunately, one difference between independent bottlers of single malts and independent bottlers of American straights is that the UK bottlers disclose the distillery. In fact, that's their major selling point. In the US, they don't, and frequently invent some fictional pedigree instead.

That isn't always the case though - sometimes single-malt casks are sold under terms that prohibit naming the distillery, and other times distillers have tried to bully independent bottlers (as in the case of the Murray McDavid Leapfrog controversy, which was eventually resolved in MMcD's favor).

[ratcheer]

Today, I saw Old Forester Birthday Bourbon - 2006. That would make a great present for me.

Tim