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  1. #31
    Bourbonian of the Year 2011
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    Re: Hudson Baby Bourbon Whiskey

    A lot of words is how I express myself, sometimes, to get to the bottom of things. I have concluded that preparing a regular cereals malt (grinding, steeping, germination, kilning) is not required to convert a mash. It is a question of terminology if you like, but when I stated initially that I understood a converted mash can be prepared without malt, that is the malt I was referring to, as was Byrn, who does not use the term "green malt" or rudimentary malt. He speaks only of adding chaff to assist a natural conversion, a "complete saccharification" as he states, but also makes clear, as I always understood, that in commercial practice barley malt is indispensable to making a mash. My original point was that it is not indispensable in artisan distilling and I am satisified this is correct.

    Gary
    Last edited by Gillman; 09-14-2008 at 10:02.

  2. #32
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    Re: Hudson Baby Bourbon Whiskey

    Unless your explanation identifies a realistic source for the necessary enzymes, it's not much of an explanation, and chaff is not the source.

  3. #33
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    Re: Hudson Baby Bourbon Whiskey

    It's the raw grains, Chuck, the moistening of the grain does it, the grain needn't be exposed to air and then wetted and then dried. The enzyme is already in the grain and the prolonged exposure to water activates it. This is stated expressly in the second source I cited and can be inferred from the first.

    Gary

  4. #34
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    Re: Hudson Baby Bourbon Whiskey

    No, the potential for the enzyme is in the grain but the enzyme is only manufactured by the seed when it begins to germinate. Call it whatever you want, but malting = germination and that is what produces the enzyme, germination. Yes, moisture is the cue to the seed to start to germinate. Heat and drying are simply used to stop the germination to preserve the starch, so the sprout doesn't consume it all, but that step isn't necessary if you intend to use the germinated grain immediately. I don't know plant biology well enough to assess exactly what keeping the grain underwater does, but obviously that deprives the sprout of oxygen, which may keep it from consuming the converted starch/sugar so it's available for the yeast.

  5. #35
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    Re: Hudson Baby Bourbon Whiskey

    I have some sources I'll check on this.

    Gary

  6. #36
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    Re: Hudson Baby Bourbon Whiskey

    I've referred in past discussions to an article on Canadian rye whisky production by J.A. Morrison in a book which appeared some years ago on distilled spirits production, a fairly technical article which requires for its full comprehension expertise in chemistry and chemical engineering I don't have.

    This can be found by an online search.

    In looking at it again, Morrison refers to "indigenous" enzymes in rye meal and he does this in at least two contexts. One is where he speaks of cooking the rye mash to a high enough temperature to sanitise it but not destroy through caramelisation simpler carbohydrates produced by their action and second, when referring to preparing a yeast mash, where he states that these enzymes produce some nutrients for the yeast to consume and grow.

    He then gives an impressive presentation on how exactly the enzymes introduced by barley malt and artificially where appropriate do the work of breaking the starches completely into fermentable sugars.

    Here I am really beyond the area I can usefully contribute though. Clearly a form of malting must occur even though not in the way normally understood, which I have assumed is related to these indigenous enzymes. Hence I suppose the reference to green malt in one of the sources disucssed. I would think the chaff just facilitates hyrdation and produces no chemical reactions itself (although I don't know for sure).

    A fascinating area but I just don't have the science to say more. Perhaps it is true that the indigenous enzymes are newly created as opposed to being there and then prompted to action. I understood indigenous though in the sense that some enzymes are or become resident in the unmalted rye and do certain work on the starches and don't derive from the barley malt or through other external means.

    Gary
    Last edited by Gillman; 09-14-2008 at 17:32.

  7. #37
    Bourbonian of the Year 2002 and Guru
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    Re: Hudson Baby Bourbon Whiskey

    I'm out of my depth as well, but in principle every seed is always trying to germinate so production of enzymes is always possible so long as the germ is viable. Any plant biologists out there want to save us from ourselves.

  8. #38
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    Re: Hudson Baby Bourbon Whiskey

    I don't know nothin' about nothin' but it seems you're both saying the same thing: the chaff helps promote liquification of the starch, and given time, wet grain will germinate and then be able via its natural enzymes (activated by malting) to convert the liquified starch into sugars.

    Looking at this as a beer brewer, chaff might prevent a mash from gumming up or being too thick, factors which impede saccharification. Longer mashes almost always result in more fermentable sugars both through the prolonged action of amylase enzymes and, since we're talking sour mash with respect to bourbon and rye, through the breakdown of proteins and complex sugars during extended germination of the grains present in a mash.

    So, you're both right or both wrong, as far as I can tell, in that malting per se - i.e., germination followed by kilning - is not taking place, but germination is de facto malting without the process being stopped by higher temperatures, thus producing more enzymes and more sugars than a "malted," i.e. kilned grain would produce.

    Or, I'm talking out of my ass.... This OGD 114 is pretty good.

    Regards,

  9. #39
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    Re: Hudson Baby Bourbon Whiskey

    While enjoying the Sunday paper here in lovely, ass-freezin' Albany NY, I found an article about Tuthilltown Distillers.
    Seems that due to a poorly written law and some bureaucratic SNAFUs, the distillery can't serve samples at their site.
    Looks like that unintended situation may be resolved shortly, making it worthwhile to visit.
    Now, if only the distiller would be around on weekends, I'd be able to complete that visit and meet Ralph.

    http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories...ategory=REGION
    Colonel Ed
    Bourbonian of the Year 2006

    Comissioned by Paul Patton, 1999

    "It ain't the booze that brings me in here, it's the solace it distills"

 

 

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