A lot of words is how I express myself, sometimes, to get to the bottom of things. I have concluded that preparing a regular cereals malt (grinding, steeping, germination, kilning) is not required to convert a mash. It is a question of terminology if you like, but when I stated initially that I understood a converted mash can be prepared without malt, that is the malt I was referring to, as was Byrn, who does not use the term "green malt" or rudimentary malt. He speaks only of adding chaff to assist a natural conversion, a "complete saccharification" as he states, but also makes clear, as I always understood, that in commercial practice barley malt is indispensable to making a mash. My original point was that it is not indispensable in artisan distilling and I am satisified this is correct.