BOTM,11/07:Basil Haydens

[Sloop]

I don't get the alcohol content versus price thing matters. I drink Bourbon for the flavor. I don't care what percent alcohol it is if I like it.. To me a bourbon doesn't have to bite me to make it a good bourbon. It's in the richness and complexity of the flavor.

Now to Basil... when I first got into drinking straight bourbon, it was one of my favorites. As my tastes have gotten more defined it has dropped down quite a ways. While a very smooth drink, its flavor is pretty light. It is nice for a hot summer day over ice when you just want something bright to sip on.

[Rughi]

It's in the richness and complexity of the flavor...

The richness and complexity of a bourbon in a bottle is directly proportional to how much water was added at bottling - if it was brought down from 120 proof in the barrel to 80 proof in the bottle it has been diminished by 1/3 from what it was in the barrel. Plus, many of us believe that some of the most delightful aromas and flavors that bourbon has to offer aren't even evident when cut with so much water.

Now, if we were talking about a barrel proof that happened to be 80 proof - well that's something that'd be very interesting to try...

Roger

[Sloop]

The richness and complexity of a bourbon in a bottle is directly proportional to how much water was added at bottling - if it was brought down from 120 proof in the barrel to 80 proof in the bottle it has been diminished by 1/3 from what it was in the barrel. Plus, many of us believe that some of the most delightful aromas and flavors that bourbon has to offer aren't even evident when cut with so much water.

Now, if we were talking about a barrel proof that happened to be 80 proof - well that's something that'd be very interesting to try...

Roger

I guess to each his own. 120 proof.. i would be adding water... I prefer to sip something in the 80 to 100 proof over ice most of the time.

[cowdery]

The similarities to scotch are in its dryness and tannic notes, with some hearty vegetable flavor in the middle. Turnip, maybe? I kid, but it does have a raw grain taste at the center. All of the Old Grand-Dads do. With scotch, too, there is that malt taste that's always there, whereas in many bourbons you don't get any raw grain flavor.

(I'm using the expression "raw grain" to mean the same thing as vegetal, and I prefer "raw grain" to "grainy," which tends to be misinterpreted.)

[Gillman]

I've always wondered about that taste in Basil Hayden and other Beam products (even their best) up to 8 years old. Knob Creek doesn't have it though. I wonder if - in the Beam process and the way it has matured its products - 9 years is the bright line for that taste to fade. Other distilleries offer whiskeys younger than Basil Hayden that do not have that assertive vegetable taste. I wonder why this is exactly? (I don't intend to divert the thread so this is more a musing than anything else, or to be pursued in a separate thread). I am not a fan of Basil Hayden, but for the kind of taste we are discussing, I think the first bottling of Baker's presented it best.

Gary

[polyamnesia]

The similarities to scotch are in its dryness and tannic notes, with some hearty vegetable flavor in the middle. Turnip, maybe? I kid, but it does have a raw grain taste at the center. All of the Old Grand-Dads do. With scotch, too, there is that malt taste that's always there, whereas in many bourbons you don't get any raw grain flavor.

(I'm using the expression "raw grain" to mean the same thing as vegetal, and I prefer "raw grain" to "grainy," which tends to be misinterpreted.)

chuck, can you elaborate a little more on the vegetal...? or at least link me to an area here where this is discussed?

as i continue to explore and discover nuances (subtle or not!), i am starting to wonder (in more detail) about what i am experiencing...or think i am experiencing.

i've only had an bottle of BH once...and i didn't catch this vegetable (Beamish?) character. i DID get an OGD BIB last night and did catch this sense...i think. again, a Beam product, right?

BUT i have to say, the OGD was most similar (and a bit better i admit) to that young 'old STYLE' bourbon i bought last week..HEAVEN HILL. that was VERY vegetal...

what gives that sense? corn? rye? wheat? another alchemical area i need to study a bit more.

[Bailey]

I think I get what Chuck is referring to but would never have known how to describe it. I don't find it quite as much in the BH but I really pick it up in the OGD 114. I am sure someone has posted before but what is the age of the OGD 114? For some reason I don't notice that taste so much in Knob Creek or even Bakers.

[polyamnesia]

I think I get what Chuck is referring to but would never have known how to describe it. I don't find it quite as much in the BH but I really pick it up in the OGD 114. I am sure someone has posted before but what is the age of the OGD 114? For some reason I don't notice that taste so much in Knob Creek or even Bakers.

again, i like to use the search, but it's hard sometimes to squeeze out specifics...

i'd love to find a discussion regarding basic differences in taste between wheat/corn/rye...i know aging makes a difference...but what would be two or three EXEMPLARY representatives of these various grains' characteristics.

like i said earlier, i never got the BH-OGD connection thru tasting them at all, but rather in reading it here!

again, i know what i like, but it is getting to a point where i want to know WHY i like and don't prefer various resulting mashbills/bottlings.

one thing for sure:

i'll take Weller Antique 107 over OGD 100 or BH anyday.
what does that say about what grain i prefer?
but then, i prefer WT 101 over Weller anyday...

[cowdery]

The raw grain taste is usually associated with youth, also with certain yeasts. The characteristic thing about American whiskey is the new barrel, so that as the whiskey ages, barrel flavors become more and more dominant, and you get less and less of that raw grain flavor. It does, at times, resemble the taste of root vegetable such as turnips, although that's probably an extreme comparison.

[smokinjoe]

again, i like to use the search, but it's hard sometimes to squeeze out specifics...

i'd love to find a discussion regarding basic differences in taste between wheat/corn/rye...i know aging makes a difference...but what would be two or three EXEMPLARY representatives of these various grains' characteristics.

like i said earlier, i never got the BH-OGD connection thru tasting them at all, but rather in reading it here!

again, i know what i like, but it is getting to a point where i want to know WHY i like and don't prefer various resulting mashbills/bottlings.

one thing for sure:

i'll take Weller Antique 107 over OGD 100 or BH anyday.
what does that say about what grain i prefer?
but then, i prefer WT 101 over Weller anyday...

Andy, I've referred people to a series of posts by Marvin on this site. He put together an 8 part series on tasting that has been a big help to me in my exploration of our favorite spirit. I don't know how to link it here, but look for posts entitled "How to evaluate the different taste in bourbon", by Marvin from Oct. 13, 2004 through Nov. 17, 2004. I think you'll find these to be as invaluable to your tasting, as they have been to me. I refer to them constantly.

Cheers!

JOE