Is Red Gag dying?

[AVB]

Bourbon plus whatever does not equal bourbon. You can't add anything and still be called bourbon as the end result. They are trying to call the end product bourbon and it by any reading of the Standard of Identity it isn't. Made with, OK. infused OK, end result is flavored whiskey not bourbon.

[ILLfarmboy]

I admit that "A New Breed of Bourbon" all by itself could be misleading.....

Misleading? Sure, because it is contradictory to the label. Bourbon with added flavoring can't be a "new breed of bourbon" because bourbon with added flavoring isn't bourbon, its bourbon with added flavoring.

There is enough confusion in the bourbon category already. Some people even think Southern Comfort is bourbon.

The advertising combined with its positioning on shelves (everywhere I've seen it it is right amongst Beam white, Beam black and Beam Rye) and the fact that they somehow made it so sweet without adding enough sugar to having to label it a liqueur, is evidence of , for lack of a better way to put it, getting by on a technicality, and setting out from the outset to do just that.

[cowdery]

The obsessive need to hate this product is clouding people's reasoning.

The rules about additives are intended to prevent producers from "manufacturing" bourbon by making something that is not bourbon taste like bourbon, then labeling it as such. Similar to "you can't unring a bell," you can't unbourbon bourbon. Once you have bourbon, it's bourbon. It doesn't become something else because something is added to it. It becomes "bourbon with..."

No one is pretending this product is anything other than what it is, bourbon with added flavoring. You may believe the rules should operate in a different way, just as some people personally interpret other laws to suit their own beliefs, but the law (and agency regs are law) is not subject to personal interpretation. It is interpreted by the people charged with its interpretation, and this is how those responsible parties are interpreting it.

If this is so heinous, why hasn't one of Beam's customers or competitors filed a complaint? Have any of you written to the TTB to protest this grievous harm?

[ThomasH]

As far as shelf positioning goes, Red Stag sits right next to the beam white, black and choice bottles in Ohio too. Wild Turkey liquer sits right next to the other Wild Turkey bottlings even though it is clearly labeled as a liquer. Even Southern Comfort is located in the bourbon section even though it too is a liquer and isn't even made with bourbon anymore. My local store owner told me that the ODLC comes in and determines the shelf layout of all new stores and periodically changes the shelf layout of the existing stores. ODLC dictates where each brand is placed and what sits next to what and where each category of liquor is placed in the store. You can go to one store and see tequila near the entrance while another might have scotch or brandy in the first section you see as you enter the store. Distributor reps generally are in charge of building aisle displays and posting materials on shelves during sales events and the holiday season but don't choose where the product sits on the sheves!

Thomas

[callmeox]

The address below is from the TTB site. Complain to someone who can do something about it or STFU.

Promise that you will let us know what they say when they reply??

----------------------

Report information regarding trade practices between businesses selling or purchasing beverage alcohol products (spirits, wine, or beer) to TTB by e-mail, telephone, or writing to:

Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau

Alcohol Labeling and Formulation Division

1310 G Street, NW, 4th Floor

Washington, DC 20220

Customer Service Desk (202) 927-8140

or Toll Free (866) 927-ALFD (2533) Fax: (202) 927-3306

E-mail: alfd@ttb.gov

[ILLfarmboy]

.... Complain to someone who can do something about it or STFU.

Nice language directed at your fellow forum members.

[callmeox]

A quick Google search for Beam's US ready to drink line produced results for cola and ginger ale products.

The label on both says Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey and (cola or ginger ale).

What's the difference between the label requirements for those products and Red Stag?

My guess: Nothing

[silverfish]

It doesn't become something else because something is added to it. It becomes "bourbon with..."

No one is pretending this product is anything other than what it is, bourbon with added flavoring. You may believe the rules should operate in a different way, just as some people personally interpret other laws to suit their own beliefs, but the law (and agency regs are law) is not subject to personal interpretation.

I think that about sums it up for me. It's "bourbon with...".

Like it or hate it, using Chuck's (well, not really his, but

his post) definition, it is a bourbon. Could be some folks

wanna split hairs or interpret to hate on something they

might not like?

Is it dying as the title asks? I haven't been to any local

bars to see if it's there but it is on the local liquor store

shelves and the workers there report that it is selling.

Dying there, living here. Same as everything else, I s'pose.

[cowdery]

Is it dying? Probably too soon to tell, since they're pouring enough money against it to get decent sampling. Give it a few more months, when they're supporting it less and people are deciding if they want a second bottle.

Re Southern Comfort, unless something has changed recently, Southern Comfort does have bourbon in it. It didn't historically and didn't when Brown-Forman bought it in 1979, but maybe 10 years ago they reformulated it with a small amount of bourbon. Exactly how much is a secret, but they admit it's not very much.

The bourbon in Southern Comfort is the bourbon version of Early Times, which is a slightly different recipe from Old Forester.

For the most part, products are shelved where the producers want them

[callmeox]

If my friends and/or their spouses are any indication, the product is selling. A couple time in the last month I've been shown a bottle of it at a friends house with the query "Have you tried this yet?"

Both instances are folks who are on their second bottle or beyond.

[AVB]

My guess is they'll say you're an ass.

The address below is from the TTB site. Complain to someone who can do something about it or STFU.

Promise that you will let us know what they say when they reply??

[AVB]

The obsessive need to hate this product is clouding people's reasoning.

Once you have bourbon, it's bourbon. It doesn't become something else because something is added to it. It becomes "bourbon with..."

I'll agree that it does start with bourbon but "bourbon with" isn't bourbon. I'm sure I don't need to reprint the requirement for bourbon in total but the pertinent part is: Title 27, Part 5, subpart ca3 says: “Harmless coloring, flavoring, and blending materials†shall not include.... (iii) any material whatsoever in the case of neutral spirits or straight whiskey." Once you add to it, it isn't bourbon and "bourbon with" isn't bourbon.

No one is pretending this product is anything other than what it is, bourbon with added flavoring.

If this is so heinous, why hasn't one of Beam's customers or competitors filed a complaint? Have any of you written to the TTB to protest this grievous harm?

Beam is pretending it is bourbon and while the label fits the letter of the law, the intent is to make it appear to be bourbon.

I have no idea what the other distillers are doing besides watching how this plays out but I have written the TBB and await their reply.

Here in PA the PLCB controls every placement of every product on the shelves. What shelf it will be on and how many facings it will have. It doesn't matter what the product actually is they'll place it wherever they want. American Honey and Southern Comfort are in the Schnapps section along with some Cinnamon flavored whiskey. JD is dead in the middle of the bourbon section, and Early Times is there too albeit on the bottom shelf. The state is paid for product placement and as long as they can suck some money out of somebody they don't care what the reality is.

[Lost Pollito]

My guess is they'll say you're an ass.

Doubt it. He has a point. It's bourbon, and it's not marketed to you. Chill out. This has gotten silly. Don't buy Beam if you feel so strongly. No need to name call here....but I'm not surprised.

[ILLfarmboy]

Doubt it. He has a point. It's bourbon, and it's not marketed to you. Chill out. This has gotten silly. Don't buy Beam if you feel so strongly. No need to name call here....but I'm not surprised.

Imagine if a product called itself orange juice with added flavors but it was positioned as orange juice and billed as a "new breed of orange juice".

Would that not be mighty disingenuous?

[cowdery]

Imagine if a product called itself orange juice with added flavors but it was positioned as orange juice and billed as a "new breed of orange juice".

Would that not be mighty disingenuous?

Perfect example. What about orange juice with extra pulp? Orange juice with no pulp? Orange juice with added vitamins? Orange juice with added calcium?

[cowdery]

Beam is pretending it is bourbon and while the label fits the letter of the law, the intent is to make it appear to be bourbon.

That statement is conjecture--you don't know what Beam intends--and I disagree. I say their intent is to generate interest in their enhanced bourbon product among bourbon drinkers.

Here in PA the PLCB controls every placement of every product on the shelves. What shelf it will be on and how many facings it will have. It doesn't matter what the product actually is they'll place it wherever they want. American Honey and Southern Comfort are in the Schnapps section along with some Cinnamon flavored whiskey. JD is dead in the middle of the bourbon section, and Early Times is there too albeit on the bottom shelf. The state is paid for product placement and as long as they can suck some money out of somebody they don't care what the reality is.

Have you explained the law to them too? How did that go?

You have an opinion, I have an opinion. Neither of our opinions matters, although mine seems to be shared by the people whose opinion does matter.

[ILLfarmboy]

Perfect example. What about orange juice with extra pulp? Orange juice with no pulp? Orange juice with added vitamins? Orange juice with added calcium?

I was thinking of added fruit, non orange fruit juices and how it would fundamentally modify the flavor while the product that would still call itself orange juice, a "new breed of orange juice". Maybe I wasn't clear.

BTW, I like my Pure Premium tropicana, with pulp. I like it because it is an unadulterated product. Well, aside from being pasteurized.

Being an unadulterated product is one of the things I like about bourbon. Well, aside from chill-filteration and If I had my druthers I'd do away with that process. A little haze never hurt anybody.

[AVB]

This seems to be different then what you have posted previously. If I have time I'll dig out the post(s).

I really doubt Beam is marketing it to bourbon drinkers. Frat boys, women and people who don't normally drink bourbon I can see.

I say their intent is to generate interest in their enhanced bourbon product among bourbon drinkers.

[ThomasH]

Hey Chuck, sorry about the mix up with the SoCo. I knew that it has been produced with and without a bourbon base. I just mixed up the time frame. Anyhow, Red Stag deserves to sit next to the other Beam versions in the bourbon section due to the fact that SoCo and WT honey are there too. Even Jack Daniels and Early times are there and they get mistaken for bourbon even more than Red Stag!

Thomas

[Josh]

This seems to be different then what you have posted previously. If I have time I'll dig out the post(s).

I really doubt Beam is marketing it to bourbon drinkers. Frat boys, women and people who don't normally drink bourbon I can see.

"Frat boys, women and people who don't normally drink bourbon", eh? You seem to be saying those three groups of people belong in the same category, that of people who don't know the difference between good bourbon and something like Red Stag.

I wonder if Betty Jo, Dawn, Heather, Kate, or Amy has an opinion on this.

[ILLfarmboy]

"Frat boys, women and people who don't normally drink bourbon", eh? You seem to be saying those three groups of people belong in the same category, that of people who don't know the difference between good bourbon and something like Red Stag.

I wonder if Betty Jo, Dawn, Heather, Kate, or Amy has an opinion on this.

Really?

To be honest I think ABV's assesment is right on target.

Just because the product, in this case bourbon, real bourbon not Red Gag, isn't aimed at a particular demographic doesn't mean that everyone in that demographic does not drink it (bourbon), or is incapable of knowing the difference between good bourbon and something like Red Gag.

Josh, are you saying that bourbon isn't primarily marketed to men, and to be more specific men over 30 or so?

I really don't think ABV meant it as a slight to our female members, just an honest and factual observation.

[AVB]

Yeah, that is pretty much what I am saying. All three of those demographics aren't big bourbon drinkers but obviously, there are exceptions.

"Frat boys, women and people who don't normally drink bourbon", eh? You seem to be saying those three groups of people belong in the same category, that of people who don't know the difference between good bourbon and something like Red Stag.

I wonder if Betty Jo, Dawn, Heather, Kate, or Amy has an opinion on this.

[cowdery]

You say, "the intent is to make it appear to be bourbon," but if they're not marketing it to bourbon drinkers, how does that make sense?

[ILLfarmboy]

You say, "the intent is to make it appear to be bourbon," but if they're not marketing it to bourbon drinkers, how does that make sense?

I'll take a stab at that.

Its marketed to frat boys and twenty-something adolescence who want something that to all outward appearances looks like bourbon but is sweet and tastes as much or more like the "added" flavoring than the underlying spirit.

[AVB]

ILLfarmboy has it...what he said.