Jefferson's Reserve Presidential 18

[cigarnv]

First off I don't know nothin about nothin..... but my Jeff 17 tastes nothing like ORVW 15/107 or some older Lot B's I have. As Oscar points out if it was SW pure and simple why be so "careful" with the wording on the label.

Regardless of what it is it is a good bourbon but IMO significantly over priced at $89.... even at $65 I think Lot B is a better pour and Pappy 15 is far better. JMHO.....

[Vange]

Wait, its really not SW?

[birdman1099]

Well, we know for a fact that Bernheim was not operational until fall 1992. We know for a fact that the bottles of the first run of Jeff 17 has a distillation date of 1991. and it claimes to have been in SW barrels. so one of the 2 senarios is true.

It does actually contain SW

or,

It does not contain SW and the bottle is mis-labeled. (false advertising)

Does this about sum it up????

[Vange]

Yes it does and thank you. No one from Jefferson's on the board?

[sku]

Didn't we already go through this on another thread? Given that Bernheim wasn't open then, how could it be Bernheim?

The website for Castle Brands (owners of McLane & Kyne) states explicitly that the Bourbon in Jefferson Presidential was produced by Stitzel Weller.

http://www.castlebrandsinc.com/news/newsdisplay.php?r=20090818&rfi=n&rf=n

[birdman1099]

I believe they worded "aged in Stitzel Weller Barrels" so when they eventually get to the stock that was distilled at Bernheim and aged in SW barrels,(and we know they are a bunch of that) they do not need to get a new label.

[cowdery]

The label was written awkwardly, not as some kind of a hedge, but because whoever wrote it was a dolt. It's not a label element the TTB would review, so it can't have been a deliberate effort to sneak something by the TTB. Subsequently, everybody involved and in a position to know has been questioned and has confirmed that it is SW juice, so the evidence stacks up like this:

In favor of it not being SW: one ambiguous label and a lot of conspiracy theorists.

In favor of it being SW: direct statements by all of the principals.

To me, it tastes like SW juice a bit past its prime, but SW juice nonetheless.

We report, you decide.

[tommyboy38]

Thank goodness we have the SW Truthers to expose this massive conspiracy.

[Halifax]

http://www.castlebrandsinc.com/news/newsdisplay.php?r=20090818&rfi=n&rf=n

[funknik]

Geez, I was going to post on the actual whiskey, since I just last night did a side-by-side of the Julio's unchill-filtered 18yo and the 17yo Batch 7 that I picked up in NH this spring. Although the Julio's barrel is a little softer, much "rounder" whiskey with a nicer finish, these are very similar and it wasn't worth the extra dough to me ($95 for Julio's, $70 for the NH bottling). I will also add that I've done a head-to-head of the Batches 1,2,4 & 7 with the 7 being head and shoulders above those batches IMHO.

Since we've decided to relive the drama of the earlier JRPS thread of "is there actually SW whiskey in there?" I'm pretty damn sure there is. I agree with Chuck that it's hard to tell and the juice seems past its prime.

Here's a pic of Ryan & Trey at the Old Fitz distillery where he picked out his barrel.

[ggilbertva]

So wait....was I right or wrong? Hmmm...too confusing:searching:

Actually, I really don't care. If it's good juice, it's good juice. No?

[OscarV]

So wait....was I right or wrong? Hmmm...too confusing:searching:

Same here, this Jeff18yo could be Bernheim, 2010 minus 18 equals 1992.

And all the private bottles that have been appearing lately say it's the same stuff as the Jeff17/18 and it was distilled at Bernheim.

Now the word is it's S-W,.... I think I'll just pour one and enjoy it.

[birdman1099]

Same here, this Jeff18yo could be Bernheim, 2010 minus 18 equals 1992.

And all the private bottles that have been appearing lately say it's the same stuff as the Jeff17/18 and it was distilled at Bernheim.

Now the word is it's S-W,.... I think I'll just pour one and enjoy it.

[cowdery]

There is no such thing as "Bernheim distillate in SW barrels." They're not refills, it's bourbon so they were new barrels. The only possible meaning of the term "SW barrels" is barrels containing whiskey made at SW. Bernheim distillate aged at SW would be Bernheim distillate aged at SW, and there is undoubtedly some of that still in the SW warehouses too, as UDV/Diageo owned Bernheim from 1992 to 1999.

People who are trying to suggest Jefferson's is selling you Bernheim distillate masquerading as SW are trying to stir up trouble for reasons of their own but there is no good evidence to support their inferences.

As for the provenance of these particular barrels, it has long been known that Diageo was sitting on a stash of 'SW barrels.' Exactly why they were sitting on them is unknown, except it was said they were destined for Crown Royal or some other Canadian whisky. The story that would be interesting to hear is why Diageo decided to cut them loose when and how they did. They may have more and for all we know, Buffalo Trace/Van Winkle and Heaven Hill do too.

[OscarV]

They may have more and for all we know, Buffalo Trace/Van Winkle and Heaven Hill do too.

So this brings up another question, maybe it was answered in the Parker's Heritage Collection 2010 thread, who distilled the wheated bourbon for this Autumn's release of PHC?

[dgonano]

Oscar,

HH began distilling wheated bourbon at Bernheim in ? I suppose 1999 or 2000. If Parker didn't distill the product, I doubt the bourbon would merit PHC recognition.

As for the SW 18 year. Just ask the name on the barrel. SW used Old Fitzgerald till the end.

[dgonano]

As for the Bernheim distillate post summer of 1992, why couldn't the product be called SW whiskey? United still owned SW. The product was stored in SW warehouses as DSP 16. Did SW continue distilling at Bernheim for a period under the name SW?

[cowdery]

As for the Bernheim distillate post summer of 1992, why couldn't the product be called SW whiskey? United still owned SW. The product was stored in SW warehouses as DSP 16. Did SW continue distilling at Bernheim for a period under the name SW?

[Virus_Of_Life]

Same here, this Jeff18yo could be Bernheim, 2010 minus 18 equals 1992.

And all the private bottles that have been appearing lately say it's the same stuff as the Jeff17/18 and it was distilled at Bernheim.

Now the word is it's S-W,.... I think I'll just pour one and enjoy it.

It'd be nice to see the entire story put out here, but I now know what you must have known all along and after tasting 4 different Willett's am convinced not a single one of them was distilled at SW, maybe the white dog was trucked over and barreled there, but IMHO isn't good enough to warrant the price tag. I'll let others speak for themselves if they so choose as I think I heard more than one or two agree with my sentiment.

[cowdery]

What I'm hearing is that during the transition from SW to Bernheim, UDV had some wheated bourbon made at Buffalo Trace and possibly also Brown-Forman. A barrel head has been discovered that says "Old Fitzgerald Distillery" and "DSP 113," which is Buffalo Trace.

As I've said before, producers generally will not flat out lie to you. They will obfuscate but not lie. If the original Jefferson's Reserve President's Select 17-year-old isn't Stitzel-Weller then either Zoeller is lying or he was lied to. As for the 18-year-old about which the SW claims have been more vague, that may from what one SBer called 'the phantom barrels.'

It more likely than not was barreled and aged at SW. That's exactly what Diageo is doing now with Bulleit and I. W. Harper. They are being distilled elsewhere, shipped to SW in tankers to be barreled and aged there.

So these mysterious bottlings probably are not SW but not Bernheim either.

All of this emphasizes once again why I don't have much interest in non-distiller producers unless they are very transparent about their sources.

[Virus_Of_Life]

If the original Jefferson's Reserve President's Select 17-year-old isn't Stitzel-Weller then either Zoeller is lying or he was lied to.

[cigarnv]

.... I think I'll just pour one and enjoy it.

Oscar...... here is where you go wrong... you decide on how much you like or dislike a bourbon based on how it tastes to you..... if you were a true aficionado you would focus on the label, the folklore and the mystical attraction of those holy DSP's of years past to pick your favorite pours...flavor is highly over rated :grin: :grin: :grin:

[Virus_Of_Life]

Oscar...... ...flavor is highly over rated :grin:

No it isn't, but we have a hard enough time finding out the truth about bottlings without members intentionally confusing the issue!

My issue all along has been that this monster we've created with the fervor over SW bourbon would eventually bite us in the ass. It's here, and it's chomping and we're all guilty, so that's fine; however these bottlings wouldn't have sold as quickly or in as abundance at their price tags without the allegations of their provenance and that is wrong.

I have agreed that I enjoyed some Old Taylor bourbon better then SW, I've even said some of the Old Forester bottlings hit me better than SW and for that matter I think the Everett's bottling of Weller SR (in the Handles) has as good if not better flavor than the Jefferson's and any of the Willetts I tasted. In summary, don't preach to me about enjoying flavor, I opted for bottles of Weller SR because I enjoyed it better than Willett bourbon, oh, and I saved 90% of my money! :grin: :toast:

[doubleblank]

I'll throw in my 2 cents (BTW, what does everyone think of the new penny design?.....warning....thread drift.....)

Anyway, I've recently tasted several of the Jefferson's Reserve 17yos, the new Willetts wheated bourbons, W L Wellers, my stash of several single barrel SW bourbons, etc. Here's my opinion as to provenance based on tasting, research here and personal experience.

1. The Jefferson's are SW whiskey based on my tastes and the producer's direct statements.

2. The Willetts are not SW distilled based on stated distillation date in 1993 and my tastes. The Willetts I've tasted are bottled at 144 and 133.2 proofs and here are my notes.

The 144 proofer is a dead ringer for a good W L Weller. Rich caramel on the nose and palate. The finish is very nice and long with balanced sweetness.

The 133.2 proofer noses similar to the 144er, but has a drier, woodier finish. Not unlikeable particularly for those with a stated preference for a woodier finish.

Who distilled these Willetts......I don't know. My guess is BT or at Bernheim. Why include BT in the picture.....because of the similarity to recent W L Weller releases and the picture below.

[cigarnv]

Randy, agree with you 100% on the Willet's...... I have always suspected Bernheim but you raise an interesting point regarding BT....

BTW, it was nice visiting with you at Dougs....