Sazerac Rye mashbill

[Shell]

Excuse me if this has been discussed in other posts, but I'm wondering what the mashbill is in Sazerac Rye whiskey (both the 6 yr. and 18 yr.)?

I find the Sazerac Rye 6 yr. to be excellent. The Sazerac 18 yr. is on my 'to try' list.

Thanks in advance.

[B.B. Babington]

if I post the link right, this will take you to page 4 of the BTAC sticky which has barturtle's pdf files

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11718&page=4

[Shell]

if I post the link right, this will take you to page 4 of the BTAC sticky which has barturtle's pdf files

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11718&page=4

[Brisko]

Two questions.

Are you referring to the Handy or the regular issue Saz?

If the latter, does it still have an age statement? I thought that disappeared.

[Rughi]

...I would assume that the Sazerac 6 yr. has the same mashbill as the 18 yr....

There's no reason to believe that as far as I know. Anyway, industry people tell us mashbill is fairly unimportant when it's just a few % points compared to the house style of the distillery and the warehouse location.

Saz Jr. is its own creature. It is a current product at an operating distillery.

You might find VW rye and Saz 18 to be much more closely related. :cool:

Here's a fun post to read.

Roger

[Shell]

Two questions.

Are you referring to the Handy or the regular issue Saz?

If the latter, does it still have an age statement? I thought that disappeared.

I was referring to both Sazerac 6 yr. & Sazerac 18 yr. I was wondering the proportion of rye, corn, and malted barley in the mashbill. (I suspect the rye is likely higher than 51%.)

Thanks.

[Brisko]

Let me try this again.

When you speak of the Sazerac 6 year, are you referring to the Thomas Handy Sazerac or the standard 90 proof bottling? If you're referring to the 90 proof bottling, does it still have an age statement? I thought that disappeared some time ago.

[Shell]

Let me try this again.

When you speak of the Sazerac 6 year, are you referring to the Thomas Handy Sazerac or the standard 90 proof bottling? If you're referring to the 90 proof bottling, does it still have an age statement? I thought that disappeared some time ago.

My apologies for not being precise/clear. I am referring to the Sazerac 90 proof. (Attached is a photo.)

I don't currently have a bottle on hand, so I don't know if it is still showing an age statement on the bottle. The reviews that I've seen on it all refer to it as a 6 yr.

Thanks, again.

[Josh]

I am 99.999999995% sure the Sazerac and Handy have the same mashbill. I have not even heard anyone insinutae that they may not be the same. The rumor is that the Saz 18 is from Medley or Berheim.

I would actually guess that currently NAS Saz (which is still available although hard to find around here) is firmly in the "barely legal" category, maybe even a little lower than Ritthouse.

[craigthom]

There's no reason to believe that as far as I know. Anyway, industry people tell us mashbill is fairly unimportant when it's just a few % points compared to the house style of the distillery and the warehouse location.

Saz Jr. is its own creature. It is a current product at an operating distillery.

You might find VW rye and Saz 18 to be much more closely related. :cool:

Here's a fun post to read.

Roger

Is there any reason to believe that they are using more than one rye mashbill? It hadn't occurred to me that the Sazerac 18, baby Saz, and Handy might not be the same going into the barrels. It's certainly possible, but it seems odd that they would have special mashbills for such low-volume products.

[Rughi]

Is there any reason to believe that they are using more than one rye mashbill? It hadn't occurred to me that the Sazerac 18, baby Saz, and Handy might not be the same going into the barrels. It's certainly possible, but it seems odd that they would have special mashbills for such low-volume products.

Well, let's say it this way:

Sazerac company at their George T Stagg distillery in Frankfort made the current Sazerac NAS and Handy. There is every reason to believe they are the same distillate as each other.

Sazerac company is thought to have bought the Sazerac 18 from either one or two outside sources. They may not even know the mashbill(s) because they didn't make it.

[Brisko]

That's how I understand it, too.

[cowdery]

BT makes one rye mashbill. It is 51% rye, 39% corn, 10% malt, or thereabouts. That's pretty much everybody's mash bill for straight rye. The exceptions are the 'ingredient ryes' like Bulleit and WhistlePig, at 95%-100%.

Rye, wheat and barley (malt) are small grains. Rye and wheat, in bourbon parlance, are also referred to as 'flavor grains.' I've never heard anyone at a distillery use the term 'finish grain.' If you want to call malt something, call it the enzyme grain. That's what they use it for.

[ethangsmith]

That's interesting because that mashbill is almost the same as what HH is using for Rittenhouse/Pikesville and yet I find the "Baby" Sazerac to have a much stronger rye quality to it. The Rittenhouse and Pikesville, while certainly a rye whiskey, are mild, soft, and easy to sip. Almost bourbon-like. The "Baby" Sazerac I had was much drier, more bitter, and spicy. Everything a traditional rye should be. Not knocking the Rittenhouse or Pikesville and I have quite a few bottles of each in my stash. I actually prefer the easy drinking of the HH ryes over the BT ryes, but it's not to detract from the BT ryes. They too are very fine products. Just a bit too bitter for my pallet.

[tmckenzie]

each distillery produces a different taste even if it is the same mashbill. Yeast, still, water, all come into play.

[White Dog]

That's interesting because that mashbill is almost the same as what HH is using for Rittenhouse/Pikesville and yet I find the "Baby" Sazerac to have a much stronger rye quality to it. The Rittenhouse and Pikesville, while certainly a rye whiskey, are mild, soft, and easy to sip. Almost bourbon-like. The "Baby" Sazerac I had was much drier, more bitter, and spicy. Everything a traditional rye should be. Not knocking the Rittenhouse or Pikesville and I have quite a few bottles of each in my stash. I actually prefer the easy drinking of the HH ryes over the BT ryes, but it's not to detract from the BT ryes. They too are very fine products. Just a bit too bitter for my pallet.

The more I drink Ritt, the more it tastes like Bourbon to me. Not in a bad way, just not very Ryeish. It will be very interesting to taste Rye that was actually made at Bernheim, rather than B-F. It's coming soon.

[cowdery]

Don't get your hopes up. The Bernheim-made Rittenhouse won't taste much, if at all, different.

[ethangsmith]

Good, because I love my Rittenhouse and Pikesville just the way they are!

[Shell]

each distillery produces a different taste even if it is the same mashbill. Yeast, still, water, all come into play.

As well as the aging in the wood - and the craft of the master distiller.

[Brisko]

Well, let's say it this way:

Sazerac company at their George T Stagg distillery in Frankfort made the current Sazerac NAS and Handy. There is every reason to believe they are the same distillate as each other.

Sazerac company is thought to have bought the Sazerac 18 from either one or two outside sources. They may not even know the mashbill(s) because they didn't make it.

[Gillman]

My guess is Sazerac 18 is same source as COK, i.e., UDV.

[cowdery]

I've often thought about that question and my conclusion is that it's an illusion. There was nothing special about those batches of COK and Medley, and some of Heaven Hill's Rittenhouse from that period. It's just that when they were finally bottled, so many years later, the actual number of bottles sold was very small, so one or two barrels went here, one or two went there. A batch of, say, 200 barrels isn't a particularly large batch, but when it dribbles out under a bunch of different names, a handful of barrels at a time, it seems like more than it is.

[Brisko]

So did they plan all along to make a superannuated rye, or was it just dumb luck that they had these barrels aging for so long? (I assume partially dumb luck or else they would have had more in the pipeline).

And, to clarify, because I'm a little slow:

VW= COK (UDV) and Medley.

Rittenhouse 21/23/25 = Heaven Hill

KBD= CoK?

Hirsch= CoK?

Saz 18= CoK?

Michter's 10= CoK?

And pardon a neophyte question, but where was the CoK/UDV rye being run at that time (I was still learning to tie my shoes in 1982)?

[Josh]

So did they plan all along to make a superannuated rye, or was it just dumb luck that they had these barrels aging for so long? (I assume partially dumb luck or else they would have had more in the pipeline).

And, to clarify, because I'm a little slow:

VW= COK (UDV) and Medley.

Rittenhouse 21/23/25 = Heaven Hill

KBD= CoK?

Hirsch= CoK?

Saz 18= CoK?

Michter's 10= CoK?

And pardon a neophyte question, but where was the CoK/UDV rye being run at that time (I was still learning to tie my shoes in 1982)?

[cowdery]

The COK was made at Bernheim in Louisville.

Remember how the glut worked. Sales kept declining, so even after they stopped making so much, inventories continued to grow. When companies stopped making it altogether, but still had brands through which to sell it, they always bottled the oldest whiskey first. They also would then either discontinue or sell their rye brands, not necessarily with stock since the buyer was probably overstocked too. There was some left over and it just sat there, aging, until somebody decided they wanted it. It wasn't much, relatively speaking, so most people weren't interested. It was only when someone found/created the boutique market that they started to sell a few barrels, then a few barrels more. I'm prepared to believe it was Julian Van Winkle who started it. He started to see sales of extra-aged bourbons picking up and thought 'why not a rye?' And his business model worked in small quantities, that might just use a barrel or two at a time. The barrels he rejected then wound up at KBD, where they got bottled as a lot of other things, but always in very small quantities.