What ages better Wheat or Rye.

[Creggor]

Hello. Would like to hear various opinions on this subjrct. I had noticed that all 6 of the Bourbons given a score of 96 or higher from the folks at Tastings.com. Are all Wheaters and all are aged for some time. 23-20-15 yr Van Winkle 20yr Hirsch 15yr Noah's Mill and the Black label Makers Mark I do not know how long this product is aged for. Seems the Beverage Tasting Institute Favors wheaters. So this got me to thinking does Rye age as well as Wheat when it it used as the flavor grain. Thanks Creggor.

[RyanStotz]

Creggor:

> Are all Wheaters and all are aged for some time. 23-20-15 yr Van Winkle 20yr

> Hirsch 15yr Noah's Mill and the Black label Makers Mark.

Actually, only the VW 15 YO and Maker's Mark are wheaters, the others are rye bourbons.

> So this got me to thinking does Rye age as well as Wheat when it it used as

> the flavor grain.

Thought about that myself from time to time, but there are just not enough examples of either to say. Factor in differences in recipes, distilling methods, warehouse differences, barrel variance and such and it's just not something that can be evaluated. Not that that prevents people from having opinions, naturally, but IMO those opinions have a flimsy foundation.

Stotz

[Creggor]

Hello, Ryan. I stand corrected. Your right the 20yr Hirsch is Rye as is the 23yr Pappy. However the 20yr Pappy is a wheated bourbon. I asked Julian Vanwinkle and he told me this. As for the Noah's Mill I asked John Limpan last night if he knew if the Hirsch and Noahs Mill were wheated and he told me they were. I assumed that all the Vanwinkle Bourbons were wheated. So parden by mistake. I still do not know if the Noah's mill is wheated or rye. As you and John both have different opinions. With the advent of the 23yr Pappy and the Noah's Mill maybe being Rye flavored I guess my question or observation is somewhat less founded. Thanks. Creggor

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Creggor said,"I asked John Limpan last night if he knew if the Hirsch and Noahs Mill were wheated and he told me they were."

No I didn't. I said they're both ryes.

=John=

http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[Creggor]

Hello, John. I have more egg on my face. I read your reply kinda quick. I misread the Rye as yes assuming they were both wheat flavored. I am sorry for making the mistake. You are correct. And I feel kinda silly. Will go back under my rock. Creggor.

[RyanStotz]

Creggor:

> However the 20yr Pappy is a wheated bourbon. I asked Julian Vanwinkle and he

> told me this.

It's wheated now, but wasn't until very, very recently. So recently, in fact, that I've yet to see the wheated version turn up in any of my usual haunts. So that leaves us in a flux period where any given bottle of Pappy 20 out there could be the old rye recipe (from old Glenmore stock, IIRC) or the new wheater, but I'd strongly suspect that most stuff sitting on shelves is the rye.

Stotz

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Said Stotz,"... could be the old rye recipe (from old Glenmore stock, IIRC)..."

I THINK the Van Winkle Family Reseve RYE is from old Glenmore stock (it would have been made to be Rittenhouse then). I remember reading somewhere that the original Old Pappy 20 was from the old Boone distillery. However, I don't know that there've been only two; the "old" Pappy still available might not be the same bourbon that was originally released under that label. And there's no reason to believe that the 23-year-old is related to it in any way. Even though some of us (me, for sure) will miss the old Pappy 20 stock, Julian's new version is absolutely breath-taking, and is now in line with his other products. The 23 (the current version of which I'm not all that excited about) will probably be even better. As for which bottle is the one you're about to buy off the shelf, there IS a way to tell, but I'll let Julian post that if he wants to.

=John=

http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[Creggor]

Hello, Ryan your correct the old 20yr pappy is Rye flavored and the new 20yr pappy is wheat flavored. This new version was bottled this past December. If the bottle your thinking about buying was in your store before that it's a good chance it's the rye version. I have yet to try these I am waiting for a special occasion before trying these , however my curiosity is really starting to get the best of me. I have heard good things about the old 20yr pappy and wonderfull things about the new wheat flavored 20yr pappy. I dearly love the 15yr Van Winkle 107 Proof. I'm talking myself into a special occasion. This Friday is payday. I guess that might count as a special day. I have some of each in my stash. I will go broke if I like the new 20yr better than the 15yr VW 107 proof. I just loaded up on more of the 15yr and the Van Winkle 12 & 13yr Rye today. Creggor

[RyanStotz]

Creggor:

"I have heard good things about the old 20yr pappy and wonderfull things about the new wheat flavored 20yr pappy."

You heard right, at least about the old Pappy 20. Haven't yet been fortunate enough to find the new stuff.

"I will go broke if I like the new 20yr better than the 15yr VW 107 proof."

Nah, you won't. The Pappy 20 rye is so huge that at least I have a hard problem drinking it very often. That doesn't mean it's not phenomenal, just that it's too big for an everyday kind of pour, regardless of expense. Definitely a special occasion tipple. You'll go through a lot of VW 15 before seeing the bottom of that Pappy 20.

Stotz

[Creggor]

Hello, Ryan. Thanks for your comments on the 20yr pappy. At this stage of my Bourbonic adventure I am quite pleased to have the 15yr Vanwinkle on a short list of gota have in stock at all times. I may like to 20yr Pappy better than the 15yr At this time I do not know. For now I am pleased say the 20yr Pappy will be a special occasion treat as well as my 20yr Hirsch. I have added Julians 12 & 13 yr Rye Whiskeys to my qota have list both are very nice. Julian VW Gets A Tip Of The Hat To You Sir. You have made my Bourbon & Whiskey drinking much more enjoyable than Jim & Jack, Thanks Creggor.

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Said Stotz, "... The Pappy 20 rye is so huge that at least I have a hard problem drinking it very often. That doesn't mean it's not phenomenal, just that it's too big for an everyday kind of pour, regardless of expense. Definitely a special occasion tipple..."

Very true. There really *can* be too much of a good thing. Like some wonderful, ultra-rich desserts, the Pappy 20 (and a select few others) is just too much for everyday consumption.

=John=

http://w3.one.net/~jeffelle/whiskey

[Guest **DONOTDELETE**]

Rye whiskey which contains at least 51% rye matures very well at around 5 years. There is no reason to keep American whiskies in the barrel for more than 8 years unless you want to play the age game. However I must admit there are some nice Bourbons out there 10-12 years of age but generally American whiskies find maturity between 4-8 years. The Hirsch whiskey will be gone in a year or two since the Michter Distillery has not opperated in years. And of course the Pappy Van Winkle whiskey was not produced by the owners of the brand.