CL Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 I don't know if the Secretariat bottles are hard to find or not, but I just saw two of them, $45 each, at Our Place Liquors on Poplar Level Road in L'ville.I stopped in there to get a bottle of Jefferson. No, not the Jefferson Reserve. It is a new bottling called Jefferson which is down market from JR. I first saw this earlier tonight at Furlongs. I didn't get any cuz I was disappointed with JR in the past. But, I later spoke with another SB.com member who said the normal Jefferson was good. So, I bought a bottle. It is 88 proof, no age statement. $29. It is "very small batch". I have batch #1, bottle #906. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 If you ask Bill Samuels why they don't do a lot of specialty bottlings, his answer will be, "that's not the business I'm in." The reasons for that are several. Even though there is virtually another whole "hidden" distillery you don't see on the tour, MM is still a much smaller producer than Beam, HH, BT, etc. They really don't have the volume to set aside enough barrels for extra aging that would allow them to create specialty bottlings. As it is, they sell everything they can make, so why go to the expense of creating new products? They also have a very focused marketing strategy. "Maker's Mark" means one thing, which is constantly reinforced. They have hit a very sweet market, the affluent drinker who isn't particularly knowledgable but who will spend more to buy what is generally considered "the best" in the category. Maker's has grabbed that niche and they're smart to do everything they can to hang on to it. Also very cleverly, they have exploited a unique feature of their brand -- the wax-dipped tops -- to create a cult following. There is a huge community of MM collectors and it's in no way based on the product inside the bottle. Because they don't have to worry about the aging cycle, they can produce new products quickly to meet market demand. And because they have made the wax-dipped top such a trademark, no one else can challenge them in that business.Finally, the true whiskey enthusiasts like us can complain that MM has nothing for them and it's true. MM does not cater to that audience. BT does in a big way, others do too in smaller ways, but MM does not. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but that's their choice.Happily, if we want to taste extra-aged wheated bourbon, we have Van Winkle. It's widely known that the MM recipe is essentially the same as the old Stitzel-Weller wheated bourbon recipe, even down to the yeast. In that sense, we're not missing anything. There is, of course, the matter of the export bottlings. If they can make those products for export, why not make them available here? One reason is the cost of distribution. In raw business terms, it probably isn't worth it for them. Also, citing what I said above, they may not have the volume to support wider distribution of those products. Finally, the Japanese market demands especially extra-aged products and will pay big bucks for them. If released here at comparable prices, the products probably wouldn't sell. If released here at lower prices, they would risk creating an export gray market to Japan.The bottom line is, of course, the bottom line. There just isn't a good business case for MM to release more specialty bottlings in the U.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted August 4, 2003 Author Share Posted August 4, 2003 Good points to ponder, Chuck. There was another thing the tour guide said , and now that I heard it I will ask other distillers about it. It was that Maker's Mark doesn't allow fermentation to go to the point of the yeast dying. They run it to the still while there still is a little fermentation going on . He claimed that doing it that way sending it to the still while there still for others was more potential alcohol in the mash made a better end product. Convieniently he also noted lower proof coming off the still and lower proof at barreling while on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I would be interested to know what other distillers say about that. I don't know that this is unique to MM. Yeast die at the end of the fermentation process because they run out of food and are killed off by the alcohol. Yes, they are killed off by their own waste product, an ecological metaphor if ever there was one. Of course, any yeast that are still alive when they hit the still are killed by the steam, so that's as far as it can go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratcheer Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Ahem, if we humans hadn't developed sanitation systems, we would probably be killed off by our waste products, too. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I say more power to them! Sometimes I think we are in sort of a fantasy land here in bourbonia and we loose site of the fact that it's all about dollars and cents. I'm glad companies like BT and WT have the means and resources to provide us with special bottlings, but when the bottom line is at stake, I'm sure those will be the first to go. I truely respect and admire the marketing firm that has built such a fantastic image for MM. You can't look at a red-wax candle and not think of MM And as much as we like to be critical of marketing and hype, I believe MM has done wonders for the overall image of bourbon across the world. Oh, and BTW, the bourbon is actually pretty good too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 I'm happy to report that the advertising agency that developed the Maker's Mark image was a local Louisville company, not some big firm from Chicago or New York. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Whomever they are, they do a great job. I saw a great billboard this past weekend in L'ville. It was on I-64 just east of the I-64 and I-65 junction near downtown L'ville. The billboard had red wax in flames like those you would see on the side of a hot rod. I wonder if it was timed for the National Street Rod Convention that was in L'ville this past weekend. All weekend long, I saw lots of cool 1948 and prior custom street rods. When I called home to check in with my wife and kids, I told my 10 yo son about the cars. He was ecstatic, but, alas, I didn't have the camera to take any photos for him (I had left the camera at home). My son reminded me that I had blown it once again. When I was in Bardstown back in May with Bobby, Betty Jo, and Brenda, there was Prowler gathering in Bardstown. There were dozens of them. I had the camera and said I would come back and take a photo, but by the time I did, they were all gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 A little off topic here, but I recently got a new cell phone with a camera in it, and you would not beleive how many times i have used this thing already! It's always at my side, and best of all I can send the pics i take right to someone's email addy from the phone. Heck, I can even browse this forum, post, and check my email right from it. And the phone is no bigger than any of the flip phones out there right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 My sister in IN has one of those phones, but I guess I am an old-fashioned geek. I like a cell phone to be a FREAKING cell phone, not an Internet browser, game console, or camera. I guess I am old-fashioned. I want a cell phone, small enought to fit unobtrusively into a pants pocket, with ubiquitous coverage. The heck with all these other features. Get the basics right first, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted August 6, 2003 Author Share Posted August 6, 2003 I would be interested to know what other distillers say about that. I don't know that this is unique to MM. Yeast die at the end of the fermentation process because they run out of food and are killed off by the alcohol. Jimmy Russell was at a local Liquor store for a signing today( Russells Reserve and a 12 YO) I ran that passed him. He said at Wild Turkey they ferment for 72 hours and it's possible a little is left at the end but it's more likely that it is finished. He said the main thing is, they want their yeast to be in control of all the fermentation. If it reaches a certain temperature it dies, there are wild yeasts in the air and a secondary fermentations begins. They do not want this to occur. Post # 1000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Bobby, that was your 1000th post! Congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 I thought like that until 3 months ago, but now I am a changed man. And it is small enough to easily fit in my pants pocket and not really know it is there. It is not one of those big pda phones... And the coverage is the best I have ever had. No LD, no roaming ANYWHERE, even on other peoples networks and more. Sometimes technology needs to be embraced. The best is being able to use it as a modem via a data cable to my laptop and surf from anywhere even the car, a train, a hotel room etc... And for no additional charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted August 6, 2003 Author Share Posted August 6, 2003 Bobby, that was your 1000th post! Congrats! Thanks CL I was aware of getting close the other day , I was oblivious to it until I came back on and saw your post. I didn't plan it but I could do no better than posting about Jimmy Russell. Some of my posts came hard as I tend, as Amelia says, to write Books at times. Just the other day......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 I just happened to glance over to the left and saw that 1000 number staring at me. And I can't remember too many of yours being long. But, I wouldn't know about writing long posts. Me? Never! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurphyDawg Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 yay for bobby's ONE THOUSANTH post! TomC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrel_Proof Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 He's hard on your tail there, Tom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneCubeOnly Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 If you ask Bill Samuels why they don't do a lot of specialty bottlings, his answer will be, "that's not the business I'm in."I still can't help but wonder if he isn't making a mistake with his strategy. I agree with all your comments about how it's truly WORKING for him, and I'm sure he's perfectly content because they sell all they make, but think of the LOST opportunities. Like you mentioned, they have an incredibly loyal fanbase. Imagine how many of those folks would shell out even BIGGER bucks for something even MORE special or unique! He has the potential for higher profit margins. They've already won people over with a midshelf bottling masquerading as top-shelf, and there's the obvious danger of giving people a taste of the 'good stuff' and alienating them, but there's ALSO the potential of getting new fans (eg. somebody tries the new high-end Maker's, likes it, and makes vanilla MM their everyday pour...)Historically, companies that expand their product lines win over more people. The automobile industry is a perfect example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 I understand the alleged MM strategy, but it's a shame they won't take the plunge like BT and ORVW have. We want MM to give us more, but they won't. We all cut our teeth on their excellent marketing, but after we have matured, we want more. Heck, it's their loss. We'll spend our big bucks at WT and BT.It's a shame. It's like your first girl friend, stuck in high school, who won't grow up and enjoy the finer things in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 We all cut our teeth on their excellent marketing, but after we have matured, we want more. That's what has happened to me and I am sure others as well. Makers Mark was my first dive into 'better' bourbon years ago after drinking nothing but Beam White, JD Black etc for a few months. At first it was great to have something so different, but after trying so many other offerings from other distilleries I never went back to Makers Mark. Not counting all the special wax dipped bottles haha. If I want a good wheater I'll head right for someting with the winkle name on it, weller 19 etc... I think they will eventually shoot themselves in the foot by only keeping the 90 proof in their lineup. They are slowly beginning to shoot themselves in the foot now by flooding the market with so many different dipped bottles, that the prices have dropped on eBay quite a bit in almost the past year. In the past Keeneland bottles sold out rather quickly in KY and then sold for big $$ on eBay, now as people here have seen the ones still in KY for the 2003 year are still on the shelves and as I think Tom stated, it was selling for less than the regular red wax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_in_Canada Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 That's what has happened to me and I am sure others as well. I'm the opposite. I cut my bourbon teeth on ORVW and WIld Turkey after years of Islay Scotches. It's tough to find anything remarkable inside a standard bottle of MM.The red wax sells alot of bottles. Heck, it's the only reason I'm making my way to the distillery... to DIP MY OWN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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