Aged Ryes: One-time artifact of the '80s Bust?

[ChainWhip]

Thanks to many of you here on SB, I've recently discovered a love of gracefully aged ryes. Given my lack of history/experience with the subject, my perspective on the lack of aged rye products on the market could be skewed... But it appears to me that there's not a lot of aged ryes in the pipelines and the semi-regular releases are drawing from diminishing stocks. This coupled with the Rye shortage in general nets a negative outlook on the prospect of more older Rye products.

A few questions:

- Saz18/VWFRR: there's only so much of this left so what's the plans to replenish/substitute existing stock? Or will said expressions simply cease to exist?

- Do we know if any of the "Majors" are laying away barrels of ryes for longer aging?

- Any rumors / insider info on the possibility of more releases of older ryes?

Thanks again for all your help & gracious sharing of knowledge!

-Johnny

[whiskeyagonzo]

Thanks to many of you here on SB, I've recently discovered a love of gracefully aged ryes. Given my lack of history/experience with the subject, my perspective on the lack of aged rye products on the market could be skewed... But it appears to me that there's not a lot of aged ryes in the pipelines and the semi-regular releases are drawing from diminishing stocks. This coupled with the Rye shortage in general nets a negative outlook on the prospect of more older Rye products.

A few questions:

- Saz18/VWFRR: there's only so much of this left so what's the plans to replenish/substitute existing stock? Or will said expressions simply cease to exist?

- Do we know if any of the "Majors" are laying away barrels of ryes for longer aging?

- Any rumors / insider info on the possibility of more releases of older ryes?

Thanks again for all your help & gracious sharing of knowledge!

-Johnny

Here is a screen shot of my phone. I share your affinity for a good rye and remembered seeing this a while back. It only addresses the Saz 18 though.

[ChainWhip]

I remember seeing that too and got all hot & bothered ;/)

But John Hansell came in and set the record straight on that:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?19117-Sazerac-18-Year-Rye-Prototype-Barrel-Proof&p=318168&viewfull=1#post318168

I'm hoping BT let's the Saz18 go out with a bang by bottling the final release @ barrel proof!

[Wryguy]

Here is a screen shot of my phone. I share your affinity for a good rye and remembered seeing this a while back. It only addresses the Saz 18 though. [ATTACH]15910[/ATTACH]

That is a huge sample bottle! If I didn't have a buncha bottles of these older ryes bunkered I'd be jealous. Who am I kidding? I want some!

[whiskeyagonzo]

I remember seeing that too and got all hot & bothered ;/)

But John Hansell came in and set the record straight on that:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?19117-Sazerac-18-Year-Rye-Prototype-Barrel-Proof&p=318168&viewfull=1#post318168

I'm hoping BT let's the Saz18 go out with a bang by bottling the final release @ barrel proof!

Well shit. I was excited too. Surely to goodness they have something in the pipeline. But yeah I would love to see more barrel proof rye. I think Jefferson's & WhistlePig would be fantastic @ barrel proof

[whiskeyagonzo]

Also, I would like to seem them @ 15 years and older. Man ryes age so well. Well hell now I want some and the only rye I saw today was Jim Beam Rye. :-(

Have to wait till I get home. The U.P. of Michigan does not have much of anything in the way of rye or bourbon to choose from. Should have brought my own.

[Pikesville]

I've heard (from the Internet so you know it's true) that Sazerac has laid down more to eventually replenish the Saz 18 line with "new" make. No idea when that started so someday they may cut over from the tanked stocks to something else.

Barrel strength sure would be nice when that day comes...

[Wryguy]

First release of Handy was 2006, it was six years old when bottled, so the math would say barrel strength Handy @18 years will not be out until 2018, and that won't be in quantities nearly commensurate to where demand will be for the product in 5 years time. And it'll be BT make, which will be different from that Cream of Kentucky Bernheim stock that is in the current Saz 18 releases.

[ChainWhip]

First release of Handy was 2006, it was six years old when bottled, so the math would say barrel strength Handy @18 years will not be out until 2018, and that won't be in quantities nearly commensurate to where demand will be for the product in 5 years time. And it'll be BT make, which will be different from that Cream of Kentucky Bernheim stock that is in the current Saz 18 releases.

Is that Bernheim stock from the "old" Bernheim distillery?

RE: Handy => Saz18

That wouldn't be much differentiation (aside from age) between the two BTAC's?

[ChainWhip]

I've heard (from the Internet so you know it's true) that Sazerac has laid down more to eventually replenish the Saz 18 line with "new" make. No idea when that started so someday they may cut over from the tanked stocks to something else.

Barrel strength sure would be nice when that day comes...

Does your interwebz source say if this new Saz18 line is the same as the THH mashbill or is it different?

[michaelturtle1]

I hope the surge in the popularity of rye eventually leads to a few ultra aged ryes available... I don't hold out much hope though as most of the 18+ ryes have been accidents and "found" barrels

[Wryguy]

RE: Handy => Saz18

That wouldn't be much differentiation (aside from age) between the two BTAC's?

Exactly, ChainWhip, which is why brand managers at BT are probably thinking about things like introducing Stagg Jr and probably bringing back Weller Cent and reshuffling the whole BTAC. I'd put money on it getting turned into 4 upper midshelf offerings @8-10 year @barrel proof and 4 expressions that are +16 years and proofed down for super premium prices. Of course in that scenario ER10 gets bumped up in proof and brought into the midshelf group as well along with Handy and Stagg Jr. and a Weller cent type product. Says the newb without a single industry source. Just a guess, and one that would make them some more money, but could lead to the demise of another budget brand like OWA... I feel like the devil just made me WRITE THAT!!! On second thought, I hope I'm wrong...

Edited July 2, 2013 by Wryguy

[Pikesville]

Sorry, I don't recall where I read that, though likely here somewhere.

I also recall reading that there's only one Sazerac rye mashbill, usually in the context of folks saying that Handy is really just barrel strength Baby Saz. Given that, the eventual 18 year old should be that same standard recipe.

[ChainWhip]

Well shucks... Can't blame you if the devil made you do it ;-)

I hope you're wrong too but in the meantime, I thing KBD may be our best (*GASP*) hope for the oddball 15+ year rye?

Are there more older Rittenhouse barrels lounging around?

Edited July 2, 2013 by ChainWhip

[Pikesville]

Well shucks... Can't blame you if the devil made you do it ;-)

I hope you're wrong too but in the meantime, I thing KBD may be our best (*GASP*) hope for the oddball 15+ year rye.

Are there more older Rittenhouse barrels lounging around?

The TTB trolls have seen a label for a Jeffersons Presidential 21 year old rye coming soon. Speculation is that is Canadian sourced, which makes sense as their 10 yo is from up there as well.

[ChainWhip]

The TTB trolls have seen a label for a Jeffersons Presidential 21 year old rye coming soon. Speculation is that is Canadian sourced, which makes sense as their 10 yo is from up there as well.

If it's good, I'll probably bite. Although, I hope it's not 100% rye.

[michaelturtle1]

The 20yr Hirsch canadian is terrible so hopefully the Jeff 21 will fare better...

[LostBottle]

Does your interwebz source say if this new Saz18 line is the same as the THH mashbill or is it different?

They must be different mash bills, the profiles taste nothing alike. THH is Baby Saz without the water and tastes syrupy sweet as compared to the herbal notes of the Saz18.

[camduncan]

Where is the information coming from that the longer aged Ryes are fazing out? I'm not saying it's not true, just curious?

[Pikesville]

They must be different mash bills, the profiles taste nothing alike. THH is Baby Saz without the water and tastes syrupy sweet as compared to the herbal notes of the Saz18.

Right- current Saz 18 is a totally different creature, but once it runs out its successor will be the THH with more time in barrel. Lets hope that end product is as fine as today's.

[sku]

Current Van Winkle rye is the tanked COK/Medley vatting and they are hoping BT has sufficiently aged rye for them once it runs out. I've never heard anyone definitively state what the currently tanked Saz 18 is, but my guess is that it's Bernehim. I'm sure BT is going to do the best they can to stretch that stuff out until their own distillate is ready.

From what I understand, there's no more aged Ritt left, the 21, 23, 25 were all from the same distillation presumably from the old HH distillery. Given that they only just started distilling their own rye a few years ago and can't seem to keep up with demand for Ritt 100, I can't imagine they have aged stuff around, bu who knows, maybe they've got some of the Brown Forman barrels hiding out in the warehosue.

KBD seems to be out of all rye except young LDI.

Old Potrero just released an 18 year old version of their Hotalings Rye. I have no idea how much of it they have left, but they may be the only source of current rye of that age until the BT stocks come of age.

[ChainWhip]

Thanks y'all for the info. The aged-rye landscape is looking bleak eh :-(... I wonder if there are some long lost barrels of good old rye waiting to be discovered but this way of coming into old stock isn't really sustainable.

I also hope that some secret regime of ryes has been held back at Barton and are just waiting for the decision-makers @ Sazerac to figure out what to do with it. ;-)

Edited July 2, 2013 by ChainWhip

[BFerguson]

I hope the surge in the popularity of rye eventually leads to a few ultra aged ryes available... I don't hold out much hope though as most of the 18+ ryes have been accidents and "found" barrels

ditto.

That's always the thing I keep coming back to in my head, these noble creatures, in all probability, just should not have existed in the first place. They were "accidents" in all due respect, freakishly delicious accidents, but a accident nonetheless.

The other piece is, besides from what amounts to a very small group of hardcore fanatics of these, which I include myself in, while most of these rate very well, if you believe in that sort of thing, and taste even better than they rate, none of them, besides Saz and now the VW, ever really stood out as a must have product and was swooped up by the waiting public.

So while there is a market for them, is that market worth supplying for the small amount of sales? I think of the Ritt's, 21-25, and those were only like batches of 3,000, and they seem to still be readily out there and available. Granted the price points are high, but so it will be on anything new in that range released.

I only hope that someday, more will be out there.

B

[whiskeyobsessive]

Here is an exchange I had on reddit with Harlan Wheatley:

Q1: Sazerac 18 and VWFRR are currently produced from old stocks, but I know you are producing fantastic young rye in the form of baby Saz and THH. Can you give us a ballpark as to when the rye fanatics among us can expect a Buffalo Trace-made 12+ year rye from you guys? Even if its 2015, as I expect, I really just need something to look forward to once the tanked stuff runs out.

Q2: Could you comment on the relative importance of barrel selection, warehouse location, mashbill and entry proof to the final products you produce? We all tend to get wrapped up in mashbill, but I'd love to hear your thoughts about the other variables at work.

Q3: Any chance of ever having a #2 mashbill in the BTAC?

Thanks so much for doing this!

Buffalo Trace:

A1: Not long now, just a few more years to wait

A2: These are the key markers in production. Barrel selection being probably the most influential on the final taste. You can take the same day’s production and age in a barrel side by side in the warehouse and get different results. This is why we put so much emphasis on the evaluation and tasting of our whiskies. From our experimentation we know that the mashbill is one of the more important influences on the flavor. However as above they are all very important. I have broken it down before basically like this: Mashbill – 12 %, Fermentation/Yeast – 12 %, Distillation – 20 % Aging Technique – 50%, Bottling/Processing – 5%. All being their relative % responsible for flavor.

A3:You never know, but any plans like that are proprietary.

Not sure if A1 was a real and reassuring answer or just a blow-off, but I'm keeping my hopes up.

Anyone know if any of the DSP-354 stuff is being laid down?

-----

[MyOldKyDram]

Too much sad to contemplate so early in the morning. The thought that one day these old ladies may not be around is a sobering one. And lord knows how we hate anything sobering around here.