Pappy and the hunt...is it worth it?

[Wryguy]

I'm going there tomorrow to get the skinny on this... An excuse to go to the bar, just what I need.

[smknjoe]

Here is the post I remember seeing:

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?17799-Collecting&p=309162&viewfull=1#post309162

[sutton]

Well thanks for the tip! I'll be driving back from NJ this week, and after missing the Boss Hog event at Julio's, this might be a nice midway stop to enjoy some PVW!

[smokinjoe]

ChefNash51? (padpadpadpad)

Bingstein!!!!!!!

Thanks, Mark!

[docbible]

New updated prices for Knoxville area.....

ORVW 10yo 107 $74.99

Lot B $99.99

PVW 15yo $149.99

PVW 20yo $299.99

Pvw 23yo $499.99

I think I'll just draw from the bunker for awhile. tim

[portugieser]

Curious if anyone can elaborate on a comment I heard as to why SW juice is (was) so distinctive. I was told by a reliable source that SW used a particular method for grinding the grain that was very different than the process used by other distillers, including BT. I can't remember the specifics of the difference but the bottom line was that the character of the SW grind is believed to have imparted a soft and more "velvety" character to the resulting distillate. Can anyone elaborate on this?

[ChainWhip]

They probably added a teaspoon of unicorn piss during fermentation

Edit: forgot the smiley

:-)

Edited November 7, 2013 by ChainWhip

[Richnimrod]

Sticking by my guns on it; I passed on any of the following:

Pappy 23, Pappy 20, Pappy 15, and Lot B.... in favor of William Larue Weller. This retailer would allow only one bottle per customer for the shipment, saying the second round of '1-bottle' each, would go in turn, and continue in like fashion until all is spoken for. I called back and was told the first round isn't completed yet. We shall see. I may scoop a GTS, if available in round two.

[loki993]

After trying this week I'm going to go ahead and say no its not. I used to chase limited release craft beers and I stopped because it got very frustrating this is not different. Most places tell you they're not getting it or they don't have it....and Im totally fine with that. Then there are the places that will straight lie to you...no we dont have a list come in on release day..you come in...were you on the list? I was lied to at one place. The 2 other places I had talked to that said they were getting it, when they did were charging exuberant prices for it. One was "only" double the state minimum..and by the time I talked to them they only had lot b and ORWV...at a price of 120 and 80 respective.....another place got it, that said yeah we got a lot and we usually have it all month.....they wanted 319 for a bottle of 15 year. I obviously said thanks but no thanks....so yeah...

Im going to try and run down a bottle of FRSBLE if there's any left in the state..pay retail for it and be happy.....Ill get a pour of Pappy at one of the bars here...yeah they change a premium for it...but at least I don't have to jump through hoops to get it and Ill have good company....

[squire]

Curious if anyone can elaborate on a comment I heard as to why SW juice is (was) so distinctive. I was told by a reliable source that SW used a particular method for grinding the grain that was very different than the process used by other distillers

[Quantum]

Makers is a SW clone using the same recipe and original SW yeast given to them by Pappy who also sent his crew down to Star Hill to help the Samuels start up and teach them how to distill wheat recipe whisky.

[sutton]

Not really. It's true SW used a roller mill which is gentler than the more common hammer mill but they were not unique in that, Makers Mark still uses one today. In fact, Makers is a SW clone using the same recipe and original SW yeast given to them by Pappy who also sent his crew down to Star Hill to help the Samuels start up and teach them how to distill wheat recipe whisky.

There are many steps to making fine Bourbon and so long as the grain is ground to a proper consistency I don't think it matters much how.

Wow ... I didn't know that - then why in heck wouldn't MM take some 15+yo from their lower floors and sell it for $100/bottle?!?

[portugieser]

Wow ... I didn't know that - then why in heck wouldn't MM take some 15+yo from their lower floors and sell it for $100/bottle?!?

Interesting question. MM has well known issues keeping up with demand -- like many others -- so it's likely they're not focused on creating new products. That said, i wouldn't be surprised if they put out some small batch, longer aged releases in the next few years. Even though the volume wouldn't be much, it would be one of those "halo" products that could help elevate MM's reputation among the bourbon snobs of the world, i.e., us.

[squire]

That question would be for the owners up in Deerfield, Il to answer. Since they're working at capacity to keep up with customer demand I suspect there's no reason to hold it past 6 years.

I do recall some years back Makers had a black label 8 year old 94 proof version that was exported to Japan so it has been done before.

[Paddy]

The sad fact is that Maker's is more concerned about how many commemorative bottles they can sell than what kind of product they have available to put in them.

[sutton]

I know Maker's is in high demand, but how much Pappy is made each year? 5000 bottles? Drop in the bucket in Maker's production ... Wouldn't seem to be much of an impact to their supply and it would seem to attract a lot of attention to the brand. They felt the need to make Maker's 46, so it can't be all about making sure the baseline Maker's is maxed out. Perhaps their stuff just doesn't age well .. (or at least, $100/bottle well ...)

[squire]

I believe Makers 46 is a recycling of the version they used to send to Japan. I recall an interview some years back when Bill Jr. stated the Japanese version had a "fuller, richer" profile. Not stating this as a fact of course, just an observation that Makers experimented with a different formula before and I always supposed they didn't offer it here because that would conflict with their implied assertion that Makers is simply the best as is, that it sprang from the head of Bill Sr. as a vision and, like all divine things, simply cannot be improved on.

[loki993]

Wow ... I didn't know that - then why in heck wouldn't MM take some 15+yo from their lower floors and sell it for $100/bottle?!?

I didnt know that either..maybe they just haven't yet....

Ive actually never had Makers.....Ive avoided it for some reason....

[Brisko]

Wow ... I didn't know that - then why in heck wouldn't MM take some 15+yo from their lower floors and sell it for $100/bottle?!?

Well, it's still a matter of scale. Just because you lay down a barrel of wheated bourbon for 15 years doesn't mean it's going to be Pappy when you dump it. Of all the wheated bourbon that's aging past 12 years at BT, how much of it is going into Pappy? How many barrels do they reject? Half? Two thirds? I'd love to know.

So if you're Maker's, you just can't afford to set aside enough barrels to age that long in order to get your 5000 bottles of "Pappy" quality Maker's. And then you're stuck with a bunch of old, off-profile barrels that you either have to try to blend in to your only other two bottlings (which means you're losing money on them) or you're selling them to KBD. And really, why would you take on that much risk when in reality you can dump everything at 5 or 6 years and know it's guaranteed to sell.

Not that I wouldn't like to see a higher proof, older Maker's on the market. I would. But it's not going to happen any time soon. Remember, it's a lot easier to create a BTAC or VW line when you already have a bunch of over-aged whiskey on hand and nothing else to do with it. Creating it from the ground up when you're already operating at capacity is much harder, and not necessarily smart business.

[393foureyedfox]

Well, it's still a matter of scale. Just because you lay down a barrel of wheated bourbon for 15 years doesn't mean it's going to be Pappy when you dump it. Of all the wheated bourbon that's aging past 12 years at BT, how much of it is going into Pappy? How many barrels do they reject? Half? Two thirds? I'd love to know.

So if you're Maker's, you just can't afford to set aside enough barrels to age that long in order to get your 5000 bottles of "Pappy" quality Maker's. And then you're stuck with a bunch of old, off-profile barrels that you either have to try to blend in to your only other two bottlings (which means you're losing money on them) or you're selling them to KBD. And really, why would you take on that much risk when in reality you can dump everything at 5 or 6 years and know it's guaranteed to sell.

Not that I wouldn't like to see a higher proof, older Maker's on the market. I would. But it's not going to happen any time soon. Remember, it's a lot easier to create a BTAC or VW line when you already have a bunch of over-aged whiskey on hand and nothing else to do with it. Creating it from the ground up when you're already operating at capacity is much harder, and not necessarily smart business.

what they could do, now and then though, is to just sell MM barrel proof. theres no extra work or logistics in that, all you do is just SKIP a step in production, and mark the price up accordingly. i dont like MM, but id buy a "MMBP" and give it a shot

I didnt know that either..maybe they just haven't yet....

Ive actually never had Makers.....Ive avoided it for some reason....

unless yuo like bourbon flavored water, youre not missing much.

[Brisko]

what they could do, now and then though, is to just sell MM barrel proof. theres no extra work or logistics in that, all you do is just SKIP a step in production, and mark the price up accordingly. i dont like MM, but id buy a "MMBP" and give it a shot.

Every single bottle of 90 proof MM that comes off their bottling line today is guaranteed to sell. Why would the cut into that? Maker's may not be aimed at us but that doesn't mean it's not successful.

Back on topic-- I don't think the hunt is worth it. I'll buy any bottle up through the 20 y/o at MSRP if offered but I'm not going to put myself on a list for it. There's too much good whiskey at our finger tips today.

[White Dog]

My answer can be found here.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?21101-BOTM-11-13-Pappy-15/page3

[miller542]

Wow ... I didn't know that - then why in heck wouldn't MM take some 15+yo from their lower floors and sell it for $100/bottle?!?

Because there technically are no barrels from the lower floors. Unless something changed, Makers rotates their barrels.

On topic: The hunt is not worth it and I don't go out of my way for BTAC, Pappy, or any other limited release. If I come across some at a reasonable price, I'll probably pick it up, but there are so many other quality products on the shelves today (either new or dusty), its easy to find something good to drink.

[gobills23]

After lurking and being very sporadic poster on this forum I would like to share a few thoughts. I am a huge bourbon fan, just ask the wife, but I have finally realized why people are so aggravated at Pappy Van Winkle and the BTAC craze first hand. I am a relatively new bourbon to bourbon, but remember being able to walk into a store and pick up a bottle of 10 yr ORVW or JPS 18 year no problem. Now that everyone and their mother is trying to buy this stuff and not knowing anything about bourbon its impossible to find. It is to the point where stores near me would rather not carry it than deal with the numerous daily calls/walk-ins about it. The local stalwart stores that I could count on for a bottle in the spring and fall are now telling me that the allocation is smaller than usual and that it is heading to bigger markets; this is from a local store:

I'm afraid I have some bad news. Apparently the release this year for the bourbons was much smaller than in previous years

and as a result they only shipped to the big markets (NYC, LA, Chicago etc) and did not have any left for the secondary markets.

So no-one in Upstate NY will be getting an allocation. I'm so sorry.

I have no idea is this is true or not, but I have spent countless hours hunting this bourbon down and to me I would rather have my time and effort back and put it towards something more useful. So I may not be able to enjoy Pappy/BTAC this fall, but I will be enjoying some other equally as good and easier to obtain bourbon, I guarantee that.

[loki993]

My answer can be found here.

http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?21101-BOTM-11-13-Pappy-15/page3

I would agree Id pay those prices too however what I could "find" were 15 year for around 300. Aside from that I've hear of many places charging around double MSRP, so around 140 -160 for 15 year for example... and apparently thats becoming the norm rather than the exception...At those prices Im passing....