10 yr Old Rip Van Winkle

[Old Dusty]

Bought two bottles at different stores this year: $49.99 and $45.00. For a 10/107 wheater I'm good with that. Much more and I lose interest.

[KCJason1]

The liquor store I frequent just called me with a chance to buy Old Rip Van Winkle 10 yr. for $125. I remember buying it in the same store 5 years ago for $39 right off the shelf, so I told them no thanks. I can buy 5 Weller 12 yr. for that price. Was I wrong to do so? What is the going price for Old Rip 10 yr.?

[suntour]

Tangentially related bicycle content forthcoming; though truly this is on-topic and applicable. If you hate bikes you may want to save yourself some eye strain. I can't help it, I think allegorically.

As some of you may know Suntour was a brand of bicycle equipment that was known for its extremely high quality, durability, and low price point. It didn't have the cache of Campaganolo, which was what all of the high-end racers used; it wasn't as pretty, and it came from Japan, not Italy, home of cycling and high-end jewelry (the finish of Campy is very polished and gem-like). There was no creation myth, no mythologization, just extremely bomb-proof equipment at a fraction of the cost of the other guys.

As the years went by, Campy rested on its laurels, essentially producing the same equipment with no innovation from the early 60s to the early 80s. They didn't have to do much but put it out in pretty boxes and keep the pro teams equipped with it. All the while Shimano was for kids bikes and low-end bicycle-shaped objects. It was a joke. Suntour kept innovating to a certain extent, but stretched itself thin with too many brands and variations within its product range; though some stuff was lighter or prettier, it was all reliably functional. It just worked. It didn't break unless you broke it. Nobody was excited about it. And oftentimes unless they bought a new bike, they never had to buy it again. Many people said "set it and forget it" with regards to Campy, but that was the actual truth with Suntour. But nobody lusted after it.

Shimano changed the game in the mid-80s by introducing indexed shifting, essentially the "automatic transmission" to friction shiftings "manual". Now, anybody could easily pick up cycling. The stuff broke much more quickly, and went out of tune in a fraction of time compared to the older stuff. But not only could a beginner use it, once you got the "entry level" you started lusting after the shinier, more expensive stuff the pros were using. The delineation between levels of product got more distinct: the lower stuff worked OK and looked crappy, but the seriously expensive stuff worked even better and looked amazing.

I've definitely oversimplified here, there are other reasons why Suntour went kaput and Shimano slowly became the Microsoft of bicycling technology. Campy changed to keep up with the times, and its still around, but in many ways a shadow of its former self. Now a days, when you buy a bike, there is essentially no "cheap stuff", or the stuff that is breaks immediately or just generally sucks. They've really embraced planned obsolescence, or at least used the psychology of "you've got to get the pro-level stuff!" to rachet up the price of everything. Now, in a year, your $5000 bike is not just on its way to being obsolete, they aren't even making the parts to maintain the old stuff below a certain pricing level.

The year 2013 seems to be the year Suntour dies off, Shimano takes over, and Campy has to compete for the scraps. You decide who is who in this equation.

[KCJason1]

Tangentially related bicycle content forthcoming; though truly this is on-topic and applicable. If you hate bikes you may want to save yourself some eye strain. I can't help it, I think allegorically.

As some of you may know Suntour was a brand of bicycle equipment that was known for its extremely high quality, durability, and low price point. It didn't have the cache of Campaganolo, which was what all of the high-end racers used; it wasn't as pretty, and it came from Japan, not Italy, home of cycling and high-end jewelry (the finish of Campy is very polished and gem-like). There was no creation myth, no mythologization, just extremely bomb-proof equipment at a fraction of the cost of the other guys.

As the years went by, Campy rested on its laurels, essentially producing the same equipment with no innovation from the early 60s to the early 80s. They didn't have to do much but put it out in pretty boxes and keep the pro teams equipped with it. All the while Shimano was for kids bikes and low-end bicycle-shaped objects. It was a joke. Suntour kept innovating to a certain extent, but stretched itself thin with too many brands and variations within its product range; though some stuff was lighter or prettier, it was all reliably functional. It just worked. It didn't break unless you broke it. Nobody was excited about it. And oftentimes unless they bought a new bike, they never had to buy it again. Many people said "set it and forget it" with regards to Campy, but that was the actual truth with Suntour. But nobody lusted after it.

Shimano changed the game in the mid-80s by introducing indexed shifting, essentially the "automatic transmission" to friction shiftings "manual". Now, anybody could easily pick up cycling. The stuff broke much more quickly, and went out of tune in a fraction of time compared to the older stuff. But not only could a beginner use it, once you got the "entry level" you started lusting after the shinier, more expensive stuff the pros were using. The delineation between levels of product got more distinct: the lower stuff worked OK and looked crappy, but the seriously expensive stuff worked even better and looked amazing.

I've definitely oversimplified here, there are other reasons why Suntour went kaput and Shimano slowly became the Microsoft of bicycling technology. Campy changed to keep up with the times, and its still around, but in many ways a shadow of its former self. Now a days, when you buy a bike, there is essentially no "cheap stuff", or the stuff that is breaks immediately or just generally sucks. They've really embraced planned obsolescence, or at least used the psychology of "you've got to get the pro-level stuff!" to rachet up the price of everything. Now, in a year, your $5000 bike is not just on its way to being obsolete, they aren't even making the parts to maintain the old stuff below a certain pricing level.

The year 2013 seems to be the year Suntour dies off, Shimano takes over, and Campy has to compete for the scraps. You decide who is who in this equation.

[ChainWhip]

SRAM does ok - but point taken...

[Dolph Lundgren]

I agree with the rest that $129.99 is way too high. But, I am really enjoying this years release and it is steps above the previous 10/107s (imagine the best Weller Antique you've ever had and multiply that by 2). I personally set my cutoff at $70, but if you got spare cash lying around, why not grab it? At least you didn't have to wait in a freezing cold line for hours for the "privilege" of buying one at $129.99...

[squire]

I personally set my cutoff at $70, but if you got spare cash lying around, why not grab it?

Because I refuse to be taken advantage of which is one of the reasons I have the cash.

[BigRich]

They allegedly increased their supply by 25% this year. It never hit the shelves in Atlanta - it was still a behind the counter product.

It probably will be for some time around here.

[smokinjoe]

But, I am really enjoying this years release and it is steps above the previous 10/107s (imagine the best Weller Antique you've ever had and multiply that by 2).

I agree with your take on this DL. This years 10yr is really, really good. If BT can duplicate this going forward, they'll have a "seeker" for it, in me. This years fell into my lap.

[Restaurant man]

I agree with your take on this DL. This years 10yr is really, really good. If BT can duplicate this going forward, they'll have a "seeker" for it, in me. This years fell into my lap.

Tasted some tonight for the first time. Nice. Oaky. I'd buy it if I could grab it off the shelf. I ain't chasing though. Nor will I spew any van winkle hate because I can't find it.

[black mamba]

The last ORVW 10 I bought was $38, and it was 100% SW juice. The new stuff at anything over $45 isn't even a decision for me to make.

RHF is a superior bourbon from BT for the same money.

[jwacky]

Tasted some tonight for the first time. Nice. Oaky. I'd buy it if I could grab it off the shelf. I ain't chasing though. Nor will I spew any van winkle hate because I can't find it.

Sure has been a lot of hate towards it. I don't go crazy searching for it but it's easily one of my favorite bourbons for the price. I'd even be willing to go a bit higher than regular retail. But taste is about as subjective as anything can possibly be. In the end, I do think you get your money's worth for the PVWs/ORVWs, which can't be said for other bourbons at comparable MSRPs. Just my opinion, of course.

[smokinjoe]

The last ORVW 10 I bought was $38, and it was 100% SW juice. The new stuff at anything over $45 isn't even a decision for me to make.

RHF is a superior bourbon from BT for the same money.

[smknjoe]

Do you guys really think anything has changed with this year's vs last year's other than the bottle? I haven't opened the one bottle I got this year since I still have some of my 2012 left.

[black mamba]

What about the '13 ORVW 10 didn't you care for?

Joe, I haven't tried it yet. I had a bottle of the 15 yo last year, since it has become 100% BT juice, and wasn't impressed. The Lot B and the 10/107 from several years earlier (SW) were both much better IMO. I wouldn't turn down a dram if offered, but not seeking out the BT stuff at current pricing.

[squire]

The BT stuff is good but it's also a copy.

[smokinjoe]

Do you guys really think anything has changed with this year's vs last year's other than the bottle? I haven't opened the one bottle I got this year since I still have some of my 2012 left.

I honestly couldn't say Joe, as I have not had a bottle of the 10/107 in quite a while. I based my review on my positive experience in drinking it, and with comparisons to a 2013 OWA and an earlier year Private Barrel selection of OWA that was close to 8. Trounced the 13 OWA, and definitely better than the 8 yr OWA. I'm half way through my bottle, and am continuing to enjoy it immensely. It is as good a BT wheater as I have had. I will do a SBS soon with an open Centennial and see how it fares. My memory tells me that it might be close. It was worth every cent of the $35.99 I paid for it. Of course, the challenge will be for BT to repeat this going forward. Like I said, if they can do that, I will attempt to put the crosshairs of my whiskey elephant gun on it.

[smknjoe]

Thanks for the feedback, Me. :grin: ORVW (BT) is my favorite wheater currently made and I would buy it by the case at $36 if I could. Since it's a rarity for me I have to nurse my bottle and pretend that OWA is close enough. Some of them are, but most aren't.

[bingstein]

This is the only VW I need (I live in denial that the rye even exists because I've never had it).

[jersey12]

This is the only VW I need (I live in denial that the rye even exists because I've never had it).

[fishnbowljoe]

WARNING: Slight thread drift approaching. :skep:

Concerning the yearly special releases of Pappy and the BTAC. I believe that the distillery/distillers/whatever???, try to be as consistent as they can with these releases. I also believe that some bottlings occasionally rise above, or fall short of the expected norm. I believe this happens more often than some folks are willing to admit. Here's a couple of examples from my experiences.

The 2011 Van Winkle release. Supposedly the first year for the Pappy 15 being all BT distillate. I got to taste all the bottlings but the Pappy 23 before buying. Most people will agree that the Pappy 15 was not up to par. Hot, tannic, etc…. at least those were my thoughts anyway. Most folks probably won't agree with me, but I also happen to think that the best of the bunch that year was the Lot B. Call it a hidden gem if you will. It was like a Weller 12 all pumped up. Not much of the grassy or sooty flavor present. Rich, a little sweet, and a slight hint of smoke. A very nice pour if you ask me.

This year, I think there are two hidden gems. I wasn't planning on getting any BTAC this time around, but an ER17 presented itself, and I couldn't say no. While I haven't had any of the other offerings of the BTAC this year, I do have to say that this years ER17 is a big surprise to me. (Just discussed this last night with another member actually.) I've had every year of the ER17, and I've liked 'em all. This years is quite different IMHO. It's almost a little hard to get a handle on because it's so different. It's sweet, chewy, and pretty much lacking the BT/ER grassy, musty flavor that is usually present. The other one from this year I think is above par, is the ORVW 10/107. The difference here is not as great as with the ER17, but it's still very noticeable. Great balance IMHO. Nice combo of smoke/oak, and the nutty, caramel flavor I like to refer to as burnt cookies or burnt pie crust. Just like the ER 17, it's a little richer and more chewy than in the last couple of years. I haven't tasted the other Pappy offerings, so I can't say anything there, but I will say that I'm perfectly content with this years ORVW 10/107.

Theses are only my opinions, and YMMV, but I think I called 'em pretty close. :grin:

Cheers y'all!

Joe

[bingstein]

Something you haven't found in the last few months Bing? I'm shocked!

You'd be surprised. I also didn't get any ER17 or THH, and the Saz18 I got was not found in the wild.

[T Comp]

WARNING: Slight thread drift approaching. :skep:

Concerning the yearly special releases of Pappy and the BTAC. I believe that the distillery/distillers/whatever???, try to be as consistent as they can with these releases. I also believe that some bottlings occasionally rise above, or fall short of the expected norm. I believe this happens more often than some folks are willing to admit. Here's a couple of examples from my experiences.

The 2011 Van Winkle release. Supposedly the first year for the Pappy 15 being all BT distillate. I got to taste all the bottlings but the Pappy 23 before buying. Most people will agree that the Pappy 15 was not up to par. Hot, tannic, etc…. at least those were my thoughts anyway. Most folks probably won't agree with me, but I also happen to think that the best of the bunch that year was the Lot B. Call it a hidden gem if you will. It was like a Weller 12 all pumped up. Not much of the grassy or sooty flavor present. Rich, a little sweet, and a slight hint of smoke. A very nice pour if you ask me.

This year, I think there are two hidden gems. I wasn't planning on getting any BTAC this time around, but an ER17 presented itself, and I couldn't say no. While I haven't had any of the other offerings of the BTAC this year, I do have to say that this years ER17 is a big surprise to me. (Just discussed this last night with another member actually.) I've had every year of the ER17, and I've liked 'em all. This years is quite different IMHO. It's almost a little hard to get a handle on because it's so different. It's sweet, chewy, and pretty much lacking the BT/ER grassy, musty flavor that is usually present. The other one from this year I think is above par, is the ORVW 10/107. The difference here is not as great as with the ER17, but it's still very noticeable. Great balance IMHO. Nice combo of smoke/oak, and the nutty, caramel flavor I like to refer to as burnt cookies or burnt pie crust. Just like the ER 17, it's a little richer and more chewy than in the last couple of years. I haven't tasted the other Pappy offerings, so I can't say anything there, but I will say that I'm perfectly content with this years ORVW 10/107.

Joe

All thread drift should be as insightful Joe. And in spite of all the current nonsense from both the sellers and buyers of bourbon...we stay put because of these inherent nuances from the artisan.

[squire]

This is the only VW I need (I live in denial that the rye even exists because I've never had it).

And that is my favorite of the bunch even though it was not made by Stitzel-Weller.

[black mamba]

Squire, I think the rye is the best of the VW line as well, and I'm down to my last two fingers of it. :frown: :smil41df29a15fb35:

Who did make the rye, if not SW?