About All Things Pappy/VanWinkle

[dcbt]

Short interview with Julian below. I got a kick out of the fact the 23 year label sprang out of happenstance - they had excess 20 year old they couldn't sell that kept aging.

https://www.yahoo.com/food/first-there-was-julian-van-winkle-also-known-as-100617477026.html

[petrel800]

Short interview with Julian below. I got a kick out of the fact the 23 year label sprang out of happenstance - they had excess 20 year old they couldn't sell that kept aging.

https://www.yahoo.com/food/first-there-was-julian-van-winkle-also-known-as-100617477026.html

Edited October 24, 2014 by petrel800

[JGriff]

Pursuit of Pappy blog said North Dakota got the first shipment.

[jvd99]

With all the truck chasers and other fanatical behavior induced by the "P" word, I suspect that by the time we read about it landing from blog, it will be sold out.

[JGriff]

With all the truck chasers and other fanatical behavior induced by the "P" word, I suspect that by the time we read about it landing from blog, it will be sold out.

First there were ambulance chasers now there are Truck chasers. I like it.

[KJND]

Pursuit of Pappy blog said North Dakota got the first shipment.

It did... Sold out in an hour in my town.

[mbroo5880i]

No offense intended but I wonder how they determined the first shipment would go to North Dakota. It is almost like they are trying to create a sighting mania. :shocked:

[JGriff]

http://bourbonr.com/blog/2014-pappy-van-winkle-release-map/

Folks in the comment section say WV and IA got some too.

[ccleve23]

I saw a bottle of the lot b in MD the other day. Though it could be from last year so who knows.

[garbanzobean]

I'll either win the right to buy a bottle or two at MSRP via raffle, or I won't be able to afford whatever they're charging.

[univibe88]

I asked my local guy when he expected to get some. He has sold me a bottle the last two years at a slightly inflated retail price. This year he was very coy and said he wasn't sure he would get any. I don't believe him. I think I'm not high enough up on the favored customer list this year.

He offered me a bottle of last year's Rip Van Winkle for $150 and a bottle of Willett 5 year rye for $100. The fact I laughed in his face probably won't land a bottle of PVW. Oh well.

[soonami]

Everytime I call a store or walk in and ask, I always get the run around, which is fine. I understand much bigger fish in the sea. I hate seeing marked up bottles in display cases or managers that call and think they are doing me a favor by offering a bottle at 3x MSRP

[jvd99]

I feel that it's getting to be par for the course to be given the run around by liquor stores unless your particular contact has made up his mind that you will get a bottle (in that case you should probably already know that and just wait for his call). Otherwise, you're part of the incessant white noise that they endure every day through phone calls, e-mails & drop-ins asking when Pappy will arrive and how to get a bottle. I hate getting the run around, but I can also feel for the liquor store employees because the fanatics trying to get Pappy have to be supremely annoying over time.

[Clavius]

Everytime I call a store

Edited October 26, 2014 by Clavius

[P&MLiquorsEric]

= Me every single time the phone rings at the store I work at and the subject is Van Winkle.

BTW, I'm not directing this at you soonami. Just a tip for everyone from your friendly, underpaid wine/spirits employee.

[jvd99]

Eric & Clavius - You guys could make a drinking game out of it, but you'd probably be passed out in Aisle 5 by 10:00 a.m.

[danz]

P&M and Clavius. I get that having a lot of calls is annoying. Playing devil's advocate for a moment though, I have stopped doing business with a couple of stores that eventually sold PVW and BTAC at 3x to 10x suggested retail, including one prominent NY store that insisted they would not sell me a Stagg Jr. for less than $150, even though I gave them three chances to change their story, since it was on sale elsewhere for $50 and it was apparently sitting on their shelf for a couple of months at $150.

I'm just saying I've seen an incredible amount of obnoxious behavior by stores. Which you would expect: when there is a boom market, it encourages both buyers and sellers to drop the polite behavior that people observe if they are at all concerned about building new relationships.

Another thing: one of the things people in other markets say is to ask early and build relationships with your store. In markets like NY and, I imagine, LA, this approach has a very different dynamic than in other markets. In addition to the very large population of local residents, there is a huge volume of visitors to the city, who also shop at the same stores, and local bars to serve those visitors and the locals, so it can be more difficult to stand out in terms of getting a store's attention. I get the impression that shipments to NY, for example, are less than in proportion to the population (local and transient), so you have effectively more people chasing after an equivalent number of bottles.

After a very unpleasant experience last year, I've essentially decided only to do business with stores who run lotteries and charge only slightly more than MSRP for the lottery winners. There is no way I will even try to compete for attention with a person who buys two bottles of $22,000 Macallan 60 Lalique in NY, or $170,000 in an hour in California. The mom and pop local store model just doesn't seem to apply here.

[P&MLiquorsEric]

We don't gouge on our limited items.

We also don't use them as a carrot to draw new customers.

Driscoll with K&L had a good article on how limited releases change the dynamics of the normal "customer first" retail environment.

Limited release bourbons and beer sales didn't even make up 1% of our sales last year. But I bet they make up 95% of phone calls and customer inquiries.

[Clavius]

Limited release bourbons and beer sales didn't even make up 1% of our sales last year. But I bet they make up 95% of phone calls and customer inquiries.

[jvd99]

Danz - with all due respect, if you're extending your purchases over several stores, some of which price gouge, you're probably not making the connection with the right store with 100% of your purchases. I highly doubt that if you're dropping an insignificant amount of money at a store throughout the year (and expecting special treatment) that they even care that you're not shopping there b/c you can't get Pappy. In reality, as has been disscused ad nauseum on SB, one of the best strategies for obtaining any LEs is to establish a close relationship with a local shop, buy there 100% of the time all year round, spend a lot of money, refer family and friends, attend their events, and if you're lucky, you will be given first dibs on the LEs because you're a loyal customer - you just wait for the call. However, this approach can take multiple years. Anyone else is not a loyal customer and will get treated accordingly when they are the 79th person to cold call a store on a particular day or a customer that gives ultimatums.

[danz]

jvd99, I have not done what you suggest as a scattershot approach. A couple of my stores this year have said they should be able to hook me up with the limited edition I am really looking for this year, which is not Pappy, so things seem to be working out this year - in contrast to last year, where my 2 go-to stores basically said: get lost. One of the points I made, but not the only one, is that, in the bigger markets, an "insignificant" amount is a very different animal. I think in most markets my purchases would easily be considered significant, but I hold no such illusions here. I don't imagine I have hurt the bottom lines of the "dodgy" stores, but I also will not do business with people who are dishonest and rude, if it can be avoided.

I would also like to point out to some of the more recent fans of bourbon and other whiskies that it seems unlikely to develop a sufficient relationship with a store proprietor who has a multi-year relationship with a couple of buddies and who sends them all the limited releases, and who is rude to newcomers to the market. I ran into more than a few last year who were fairly transparent about not wanting to develop a long-term relationship with newcomers. At some point we were all newcomers. In my opinion, newcomers blindly taking the approach of trying to be one of the "top" customers of a store risk being played for chumps: they will never get into the inner circle in most places. And the limited releases, while good, are not worth that level of effort to most people.

Ultimately, though, it sounds like we are saying similar things: pick a store whose business practices you like and don't do much business elsewhere. I would add: be cautious about thinking that any store is likely to do you any favors, even if you give them a lot of business and spend a lot of time trying and effort to build a relationship.

[jvd99]

Danz - no worries. The devil's advocate is always subject to another opposing argument.

[nd2005]

Danz - I think you are definitely right that in different markets, especially crazy ones like NYC, the incentives for the stores and their willingness to indulge "regulars" is different.

But I think you hit on the main point at the end. Give a store your business because you like the way they do business.

My "go-to" store has hooked me up with a lot of the limited release bourbons. But that's not my primary reason for shopping there. My primary reason is that they have a great selection, do some good single barrel picks, and always always charge the state minimum price. And I think the owner is generally a nice guy who appreciates a loyal customer.

[fishnbowljoe]

Fortunately, or unfortunately, I see, and have been a part of things from both sides of this.

I am no longer interested in anything from the BTAC. However, as I've said in the past, I won't turn any down if the price is right, and something happens to fall my way.

I'm not a monger when it comes to Van Winkle stuff. In fact, all I'm really interested in any more is the ORVW 10/107. A couple of newer places near me have started getting Pappy and BTAC. They've used false advertising, and price gouge like hell. I won't give them any of my business ever again. It's hard to reason with store owners that rationalize price gouging by saying that empty bottles of Pappy 15 go for $200 on ebay. :skep: Yeah, well bite me! :hot:

I hate to say it, but even my usual go to place has been forced to go to a lottery system because of being inundated with calls and emails about the "special offerings". I understand they're just trying to be fair, but still….. In the past, something usually found it's way to me. Now, it's a toss up. While I'm not the happiest camper in bourbondom, I do understand. It is what it is, and it probably won't get any better any time soon.

Again, and like I've said before, I've at least been lucky enough to have gotten in on things before it all got so overly crazy. It's been a helluva ride, and I've enjoyed it for the most part.

Cheers! Joe

[bicktrav]

I'm going to jump in here on the side of Danz. I live on Los Angeles, and I spend all my money at one store. I've also got a personal connection with one of the employees, which predates his having worked there. By and large, it's a great relationship; I'm able to get a lot of limited releases like Four Roses LEs, ECBP and so on. Still, when it comes to Pappy, I'm out of the game. BTAC bottles can also be very hard for me to snag. The demand for those status bottles in places like NY and LA--cities obsessed with status--is overwhelming. More pertinently, the populations of LA and NY boast enormous wealth, which means every store has major high-roller clients, people who will outspend you no matter how loyal and lavish you are. Pappy and BTAC go to those people. Regular patronage is likely insufficient to get you bottles like ECBP or PHC either. The only reason I'm able to get those is because my friend works at the store. Basically, in major metropolitan areas, the dynamics of patronage are very different, and advice to buy only at one store if you want Pappy is probably misguided.

By the way, I certainly don't blame the stores for catering to their strongest clients. Were I running the business, I would do the same.