About All Things Pappy/VanWinkle

[ethangsmith]

I was fortunate to get a bottle of VWFRR and the hand written code on the label now has a "Z" prefix. Last year was E or F. Does this denote a change to BT rye or the last of the Bernheim?

[amg]

24 minutes ago, ethangsmith said:

I was fortunate to get a bottle of VWFRR and the hand written code on the label now has a "Z" prefix. Last year was E or F. Does this denote a change to BT rye or the last of the Bernheim?

 

I think it denotes a new reason for wild speculation, but I doubt anyone who knows is going to tell us.

[ethangsmith]

I emailed Van Winkle. We'll see if I get a reply.

[ethangsmith]

Got an email response already. Z denotes the end of the tanked rye from 2003, thus making this the last year for the Bernheim rye.

[WatchUrSix]

So I found a few bottles of Pappy today but the price is something I would never pay. It also got me thinking, what people are paying for this bourbon, to drive store owners to set these prices.

They wanted 399.99 for the 10 year and 499.99 for the 12 year. He claimed that two people called about it today and it was first come first serve. Are people really paying these prices for a bottle of Pappy?

[Tennessee Dave]

Not this guy.

[Senor Harvey]

1 hour ago, WatchUrSix said:

 

So I found a few bottles of Pappy today but the price is something I would never pay. It also got me thinking, what people are paying for this bourbon, to drive store owners to set these prices.

 

They wanted 399.99 for the 10 year and 499.99 for the 12 year. He claimed that two people called about it today and it was first come first serve. Are people really paying these prices for a bottle of Pappy?

 I am not, nor will I ever pay those prices for Old Rip Van Winkle or Lot B or Pappy Van Winkle. 

 

 

[JoeTerp]

2 hours ago, WatchUrSix said:

 

So I found a few bottles of Pappy today but the price is something I would never pay. It also got me thinking, what people are paying for this bourbon, to drive store owners to set these prices.

 

They wanted 399.99 for the 10 year and 499.99 for the 12 year. He claimed that two people called about it today and it was first come first serve. Are people really paying these prices for a bottle of Pappy?

Probably. If it's a store you regularly go to if check how long they have the bottles. My guess is they don't see the new year. 

[Old Dusty]

3 hours ago, WatchUrSix said:

 

So I found a few bottles of Pappy today but the price is something I would never pay. It also got me thinking, what people are paying for this bourbon, to drive store owners to set these prices.

 

They wanted 399.99 for the 10 year and 499.99 for the 12 year. He claimed that two people called about it today and it was first come first serve. Are people really paying these prices for a bottle of Pappy?

In a word? Yes. There are two main factors at work on those prices 1) demand for those particular bottles(and much of the bourbon world)  is at a fever pitch right now and there is a lot of stupid money and a lot of market speculation driving prices higher. And 2) many retailers are well aware of the black market and the current ask on those bottles. So rather than sell to you at or near MSRP, they want a cut of the secondary.

 

Many retailers that I talked to are fed up with the hoops their distributors put them though to get their meager allotment of Van Winkle/BTAC and then watching those same bottles going out the door and into some jack nut's crotch and then onto Facebook at a huge multiple to what the retailer just sold it for. It sucks for us but I honestly can't blame the retailers.

 

As long as there is easy and silly money to be made this will only continue. 

[Sean Bond]

16 hours ago, Senor Harvey said:

 I am not, nor will I ever pay those prices for Old Rip Van Winkle or Lot B or Pappy Van Winkle. 

 

 

I wouldn't pay those prices for any of the Pappies either, but yeah, asking that for the non-Pappy Van Winkles is extra ridiculous.

[Guinny_Ire]

Stopped by the local Total Wine today. Talked to the manager. Told her I understood that they were holding the Pappy for their premiere customers but would they be putting the BTAC out and she said "no, they would be holding that as well". I'm done chasing Pappy. It's simply not available in St. Louis except at a ridiculous price and only if you're high dollar volume buyer. And I've taken Total Wine off my retailers list. Other problem iin St. Louis is there are no rebate coupons like there are in other states. So there "buyers club" or whatever it is called is worthless.

 

Last St. Louis note: Friar Tuck's has a put your price down lottery. You have to put what you want and how much you're willing to pay for it. And you have to honor your full commitment. Obviously, high bidders wins. I would have thumbed my nose at it at the beginning of this season but now it's the most honest thing in town.

[Clueby]

1 hour ago, Guinny_Ire said:

Stopped by the local Total Wine today. Talked to the manager. Told her I understood that they were holding the Pappy for their premiere customers but would they be putting the BTAC out and she said "no, they would be holding that as well". I'm done chasing Pappy. It's simply not available in St. Louis except at a ridiculous price and only if you're high dollar volume buyer. And I've taken Total Wine off my retailers list. Other problem iin St. Louis is there are no rebate coupons like there are in other states. So there "buyers club" or whatever it is called is worthless.

 

Last St. Louis note: Friar Tuck's has a put your price down lottery. You have to put what you want and how much you're willing to pay for it. And you have to honor your full commitment. Obviously, high bidders wins. I would have thumbed my nose at it at the beginning of this season but now it's the most honest thing in town.

Yeah, I really don't understand the St. Louis market. One large local retailer holds back EVERYTHING that is even remotely allocated (Willett Pot Still, ETL, ER10, anything CEHT, Blanton's, etc.) so that it will NEVER, EVER hit the shelf and then sell tickets for an opportunity to purchase them.  At least if you were "lucky" enough to get one of the less than 100 tickets they are selling the bottles at MSRP. Then they advertise their "exclusive release" even AFTER all the tickets for it are gone!  Way to rub it in to your face. So that means unless you can get to one of their release events on that particular day and were able to get a ticket you will NEVER find anything worth dropping in to their store for.  One of the other large retailer just takes the allocated stuff and puts in glass cases and marks it up to 3-4x retail (W12 for $149, OWA for $99, really?!). 

As for Total Wine, at least they put the allocated stuff (other than BTAC and Pappiez) out as they get it for MSRP so you have a CHANCE of getting lucky.

 

Good to know about FT's, but don't think my price would be much more, if any, above MSRP.

[briankeith513]

1 hour ago, Guinny_Ire said:

Stopped by the local Total Wine today. Talked to the manager. Told her I understood that they were holding the Pappy for their premiere customers but would they be putting the BTAC out and she said "no, they would be holding that as well". I'm done chasing Pappy. It's simply not available in St. Louis except at a ridiculous price and only if you're high dollar volume buyer. And I've taken Total Wine off my retailers list. Other problem iin St. Louis is there are no rebate coupons like there are in other states. So there "buyers club" or whatever it is called is worthless.

 

Last St. Louis note: Friar Tuck's has a put your price down lottery. You have to put what you want and how much you're willing to pay for it. And you have to honor your full commitment. Obviously, high bidders wins. I would have thumbed my nose at it at the beginning of this season but now it's the most honest thing in town.

 

Yep, same issue in Georgia with Total Wine.  I'm a frequent shopper there as well, however, they want you to have spend over $2,500 in a year just for the opportunity of purchasing BTAC or Pappy.  That is ridiculous.  I only go to Total Wine, if I have no other choice now.  In fact, they aren't even the lowest priced around, as I thought previously.

[jvd99]

55 minutes ago, briankeith513 said:

 

Yep, same issue in Georgia with Total Wine.  I'm a frequent shopper there as well, however, they want you to have spend over $2,500 in a year just for the opportunity of purchasing BTAC or Pappy.  That is ridiculous.  I only go to Total Wine, if I have no other choice now.  In fact, they aren't even the lowest priced around, as I thought previously.

 

I have to put Binny's (Illinois) in this realm too.  Although they have no specific policy that I know of, Pappy, BTAC, PHC, FRLEs etc simply are not available anymore to the average customer, or even good customers.  The frustrating part is the secrecy.  No one at Binny's will give the same answer.  I've literally asked 10 different employees in multiple stores and received 10 different answers (a/k/a lies).  For many years, I've spent a fair amount at Binny's on single malts (most bourbons, except Binnys store selections, are purchased at my local), but I can't even determine where I'm at in the pecking order despite multiple inquiries.  Silence again.  I'm lucky to have a local where i can get LE bourbons, but that source is being diluted as more people become interested.  I had hoped to develop another source at Binny's over the past year and picked up my patronage accordingly, gave samples of really rare stuff to the whisky manager and chatted him up frequently, but to no avail.  I'll only shop there when I get a high end scotch my local doesn't carry.  Crappy customer service overall IMO.  

[Sean Bond]

13 minutes ago, jvd99 said:

 

I have to put Binny's (Illinois) in this realm too.  Although they have no specific policy that I know of, Pappy, BTAC, PHC, FRLEs etc simply are not available anymore to the average customer, or even good customers.  The frustrating part is the secrecy.  No one at Binny's will give the same answer.  I've literally asked 10 different employees in multiple stores and received 10 different answers (a/k/a lies).  For many years, I've spent a fair amount at Binny's on single malts (most bourbons, except Binnys store selections, are purchased at my local), but I can't even determine where I'm at in the pecking order despite multiple inquiries.  Silence again.  I'm lucky to have a local where i can get LE bourbons, but that source is being diluted as more people become interested.  I had hoped to develop another source at Binny's over the past year and picked up my patronage accordingly, gave samples of really rare stuff to the whisky manager and chatted him up frequently, but to no avail.  I'll only shop there when I get a high end scotch my local doesn't carry.  Crappy customer service overall IMO.  

Seconded on Binny's. One of my particular issues is that I go to the flagship in Chicago, and there's rarely anyone around (I guess I go at times when they're busy in back). I'd been going there for years before I met the guy who is in charge of bourbon, and I still never see the guy, so that's out. Binny's is extremely shady about their biggest bourbon releases; stuff like Eagle Rare will be locked up with a large "LIMIT ONE PER CUSTOMER" sign, and then the really rare stuff won't even appear in their lock-up (and this is a secure room where they also house $30,000 bottles), since it basically just hits the warehouse and is distributed to an unofficial list of people. At other Binny's I've heard you have to purchase x amount of liquor over the year to be considered, but half the time they don't track your purchases if you're not buying wine.

 

I don't stress too much about the big releases (and as a result, have almost none of them ), but it's definitely a frustrating situation to feel like there are these invisible bottles flying around everywhere.

[Clueby]

I had this conversation with a local store via Facebook after they posted a picture of the "rare whiskey release" AFTER all the tickets were gone and you had no opportunity to buy them:

 

Me:   Way to advertise to show people why they can never buy any of these anymore on the shelf. You save them all year long instead of putting them on the shelf. Then you sell tickets just for a chance to buy them. Hopefully they are at least priced at regular retail for the ones "lucky" enough to have paid for the opportunity to purchase them.

Them:  I can sense the frustration in your post, so I wanted to to address your concern. We perform events like this to give our customers the fairest shot possible at attaining these rare items. When we charge a fee for attending an event like this, the fee covers the cost of a pour of a pre-selected whiskey, which last night included High West Yippie-Kay-Yay and several Colonel E.H. Taylors. With the ever growing demand for whiskeys such as these, we have found that customers appreciate being given opportunities like this when all the odds are at their fairest. We also price our bottles at regular retail markup versus some of our competitors who are happy to gouge people for their passion to these whiskies nor do we exclusively sell these on the internet. I'll be happy to answer any further questions or concerns you might have going forward.

Me:  My biggest problem with your post was that you advertised the event and the lineup AFTER all the tickets were gone. You were basically thumbing your nose at the people that weren't able to get tickets. While it is your business and you have the right to operate it any way you please, I don't understand the practice of holding back EVERYTHING even slightly allocated before it gets to the shelves and then holding these events. I DO understand holding back BTAC and Pappy, but Old Weller Antique and Eagle Rare 10?! REALLY? So basically if I can't make it to a particular dated event or purchase tickets I have NO chance of ever finding anything allocated on the shelf in your store. I really don't need a tasting of Yippee Ki-Yay or Colonel Taylor as I have those at home already that I've purchased from other local retailers throughout the year by walking in and finding them on the shelf at MSRP. In late September, October, and early November I stopped in probably a couple times a week looking for fall releases and things like Old Forester Birthday Bourbon, Elmer T. Lee, Eagle Rare, etc. More often than not I would buy SOMEthing but those were never to be found. I now realize I completely wasted my time. I would even ask staff about things like OFBB and they'd just say.."no we haven't gotten it yet". They never said, "no we haven't gotten it and when we do you won't be able to walk in and buy it." You have given consumers NO reason to walk in to your store other than to buy things like Jim Beam and Bud Light.

Them:   I can understand your point 100%. I would be frustrated too to miss out on once a year items like these. I have tried unsuccessfully to attain tickets to the Winter Classic in January on multiple occasions. The stance we are taking goingforward as a business is that we want to take care of people who come here to buy their Jim Beam and Bud Light. Our customers know that we always approach releases like this in the fairest way possible, which includes performing release parties like this where people who might not have the ability to search for items like this have a fair chance. We posted details about the event on 11/17, tickets went on sale 11/26 and the event was on 12/2. I am sorry that it seems we cannot make you happy with our service, we hope that you can find a store that is able to satisfy your needs. Good luck and we wish you all the best going forward.

 

I wasn't trying to be all "spilled milk", I just wanted them to know how a lot of consumers feel.  In their defense, I'm sure they sell a LOT more Jim Beam and Bud Light than "rare" bourbon.  But, most of what they included in their release were not  "once a year items"!  Sorry for the rant and thread hi-jack.  Maybe this should have had its own thread.

[smokinjoe]

Whereas, I (like the retailer) understand your frustration, IMO he handled your inquiry very professionally.  I also can't argue with his methods in trying to find some equitable way to make these items available.  He sounds like a pretty sound and fair retailer to me.    Better than many others we hear about.

[starhopper]

38 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

Whereas, I (like the retailer) understand your frustration, IMO he handled your inquiry very professionally.  I also can't argue with his methods in trying to find some equitable way to make these items available.  He sounds like a pretty sound and fair retailer to me.    Better than many others we hear about.

Agree.

[JoeTerp]

2 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

Whereas, I (like the retailer) understand your frustration, IMO he handled your inquiry very professionally.  I also can't argue with his methods in trying to find some equitable way to make these items available.  He sounds like a pretty sound and fair retailer to me.    Better than many others we hear about.

I thought it was pretty reasonable too

[Clueby]

I agree too that he handled it professionally. However, I still think they are artificially feeding into the bourbon craze by holding things back like OWA, ER10, CEHTSMB, etc....things that are not once a year releases. I also thought it was in poor taste to post pictures and advertise the event on their fb page after all the tickets were already gone. Lastly I also wasn't fond of the fact that I was literally in there every week asking about stuff and was NEVER told that was how they operated. They would just say...nope didn't get any. They DID in fact get it and were holding it for one of their releases. I might feel differently had they just told me that.

[jvd99]

49 minutes ago, Clueby said:

Lastly I also wasn't fond of the fact that I was literally in there every week asking about stuff and was NEVER told that was how they operated. They would just say...nope didn't get any. They DID in fact get it and were holding it for one of their releases. I might feel differently had they just told me that.

 

More often than not, that's the same line of BS Binny's employees give this time of year - "Hasn't come in yet," or "we didn't get any, it went downtown," except, in reality, instead of secretly being held for a release party, it's being secretly held for a secret set of people in some super duper secret club that regular people are not even allowed to ask about.  Too many secrets.

[smokinjoe]

53 minutes ago, jvd99 said:

 

More often than not, that's the same line of BS Binny's employees give this time of year - "Hasn't come in yet," or "we didn't get any, it went downtown," except, in reality, instead of secretly being held for a release party, it's being secretly held for a secret set of people in some super duper secret club that regular people are not even allowed to ask about.  Too many secrets.

It's probably good to remember that any one of us is the 100th person for the 1000th straight day, that has stopped in, called, written, emailed, texted, facebooked, you name it, asking the same, damn question.  Got any (fill in the blank with the LE)?  I know they're more sick, tired, and pissed of having to deal with the situation than any of us may be with the rejection.  Not sure what we should reasonably expect them to do, as nearly none of us truly understands their situation.  With their sheer size and the breadth and depth of the market in Chicagoland,  I would guess you could take the scenario above and multiply by 100.  

[jvd99]

I get the LE season is probably super annoying especially for an operation like Binny's.  But I'm a good customer who spends a lot of money there and have gone out of my way to develop personal relationships, yet when the time comes, the employees go into some weird/robotic lockdown mode where they can't even give a straight answer on where I stand as far as getting a LE.  Instead of lying and saying it didn't come in when I know full well it did, I'd like to think my level of spending earned me even the most rudimentary level of customer service and truthfulness.  I would much rather be told that I don't spend nearly enough to be in the running and I'd be better off never asking again than being so blatantly jacked around.  For the average joe making random calls, it would be nice if they just admit it's held for certain customers and maybe whT the caller could do to be in the running next year rather than say it didn't come in.   It's just bad business to blatently lie, regardless of how tedious the volume of callers and walk ins.  A coherent, company wide policy that's made known to the public would shut me right up on this topic and probably make a whole of people better customers

[smokinjoe]

I empathize.  Fact is, you're in a very tough and competitive market.  for LE availability.  I can tell you I know of folks in your area who are decades and 10's of thousands of dollars into this hobby, and are doing no better.  Too much demand for a scarce product.  

[Sean Bond]

11 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

It's probably good to remember that any one of us is the 100th person for the 1000th straight day, that has stopped in, called, written, emailed, texted, facebooked, you name it, asking the same, damn question.  Got any (fill in the blank with the LE)?  I know they're more sick, tired, and pissed of having to deal with the situation than any of us may be with the rejection.  Not sure what we should reasonably expect them to do, as nearly none of us truly understands their situation.  With their sheer size and the breadth and depth of the market in Chicagoland,  I would guess you could take the scenario above and multiply by 100.  

 

I agree and sympathize, as someone who used to work retail. It can be very frustrating. However, as someone who worked retail in a videogames dept. in the heyday of the Nintendo Wii, I had to answer questions about whether or not the system was in stock, why it wasn't in stock, if I had any idea when we'd be getting stock in again and would I be able to give the customer a call when it came in, every single day, 5 days a week, for basically 2 years (not an exaggeration; I remember when the second year rolled around commenting "how are we still having stock issues on these damn things?"). I was never rude about it, never lied to a customer (with the exception of telling them they weren't in stock because we were legally required to hold the Wii until Sunday for the latest add. In which case I'd say "we might have some in on Sunday" or "check back Sunday, we'll have them then), etc. So while I can totally sympathize with anyone who is being bombarded with Pappy and BTAC questions (I feel bad asking them specifically because I don't want to be "one of those guys"), that's still part of their job, so it's something that they've got to live with a couple months a year. 

 

11 hours ago, jvd99 said:

I get the LE season is probably super annoying especially for an operation like Binny's.  But I'm a good customer who spends a lot of money there and have gone out of my way to develop personal relationships, yet when the time comes, the employees go into some weird/robotic lockdown mode where they can't even give a straight answer on where I stand as far as getting a LE.  Instead of lying and saying it didn't come in when I know full well it did, I'd like to think my level of spending earned me even the most rudimentary level of customer service and truthfulness.  I would much rather be told that I don't spend nearly enough to be in the running and I'd be better off never asking again than being so blatantly jacked around.  For the average joe making random calls, it would be nice if they just admit it's held for certain customers and maybe whT the caller could do to be in the running next year rather than say it didn't come in.   It's just bad business to blatently lie, regardless of how tedious the volume of callers and walk ins.  A coherent, company wide policy that's made known to the public would shut me right up on this topic and probably make a whole of people better customers

 

Yup, honestly is all I've ever hoped for. Something as easy as "sorry man, you don't spend enough money here, per our store policy" would be easy to swallow. Lying just makes you bitter towards the store and the employee, which isn't ideal for anyone involved. I don't pretend to have all the answers to this sort of situation, but honesty goes a long way, even if the honest answer is that they don't know or can't help. I stopped shopping at a place that consistently lied about stock because it felt like I was giving money to a place that had no respect for me (and to be clear, this was a place I went to multiple times a week and spent plenty of money at). I know it's an unrealistic expectation, but a little more truthfulness in the industry would be fantastic.