Finally a lawsuit based on false labeling claims. Tito's Vodka

[squire]

Aren't virtually all large scale stills designed to specifications and assembled on premises?

[TunnelTiger]

I'm commenting on Tito because that's the thread but the problem is lack of legal definition over use of words such as handmade, hand crafted, artisan, etc., even small batch. This is not to say such legislation is necessary, rather that widespread abuse should be curtailed and that's one of the reasons they built Courthouses.

Exactly right Squire and liqour beverage companies are not the only ones guilty of this. It is rampant through out all manufacturing products.

[TheNovaMan]

Aren't issues like this usually resolved based on what a "reasonable man" would think or do?

[squire]

Not if the jury pool is drawn from a dry county.

[sailor22]

Recently a friend related this story to me. He said his company needed some alcohol for cleaning some machinery. They contacted a large supplier of industrial solvents and cleaning solutions, explained that they only needed a couple of drums and would they ship such a small order. They replied it was no problem because they made vary large shipments of alcohol to some place near his company more than twice a week and they could just put a couple more barrels on and have the truck drop them off on the way by. That destination for the large shipments of industrial cleaning solution (alcohol) was Titos.

Understand I have no first hand knowledge of this as fact, but it was related to me by someone who isn't particularly into spirits because he wondered what they could be using so much alcohol for at a distillery. Curious if it would be possible that Titos is distilling industrial alcohol once more and calling it hand made Vodka?.

[kickert]

Recently a friend related this story to me. He said his company needed some alcohol for cleaning some machinery. They contacted a large supplier of industrial solvents and cleaning solutions, explained that they only needed a couple of drums and would they ship such a small order. They replied it was no problem because they made vary large shipments of alcohol to some place near his company more than twice a week and they could just put a couple more barrels on and have the truck drop them off on the way by. That destination for the large shipments of industrial cleaning solution (alcohol) was Titos.

Understand I have no first hand knowledge of this as fact, but it was related to me by someone who isn't particularly into spirits because he wondered what they could be using so much alcohol for at a distillery. Curious if it would be possible that Titos is distilling industrial alcohol once more and calling it hand made Vodka?.

GNS is GNS regardless of what you are using it for. The 190 proof ethanol that any "distillers" use would be considered "industrial alcohol." There are quite a few big distillers of GNS, some are more on the industrial side and others more on the food/spirit side of things. As far as I know, the biggest supplier for all uses is ADM.

And not to cause too much thread drift, but let me say there is a significant difference in various GNS products. We did a taste test at various proofs and some were so distinct as to be easily selected blind. The best by far was what was coming from DRinc out of Idaho.

[Gillman]

IIRC, vodka as defined in the SOI is neutral spirits (distilled 190 proof or more, bottled at 80 proof or higher) which doesn't have a distinctive taste or aroma. So, GNS as such, if it has no distinct character, can be vodka. So can GNS which is filtered in charcoal or treated in another way to ensure there is not distinctive taste or odor.

I think what Tito's may be doing (i.e., trying to interpret the company's statement about the suit and other information out there), is re-distilling commercial GNS in pot stills to a more pure form. The company statement referred to a cut of the spirit, by which I would take it, it wants a specific congener trace content, one that has its own stamp. Of course, the water it uses to dilute the spirit to bottling proof will have been chosen to contribute to the character sought as well. As Squire said, there is no fixed definition of hand made and that is why courts exist. Clearly plaintiff considers it has an arguable case, but I can also see the case for Tito's if in fact it is re-distilling sourced GNS to make vodka as Tito wants it to taste.

The legal process will have its say, but personally I have not jumped to any conclusions here. Also, I do find the fact that TTB apparently had no issues with handmade a factor in the company's favor.

Advertising is in the nature of it a process where people often gild the lily so to speak, it is built into the nature of marketing. It has always been thus and always will be. If it is felt people go too far, others have the right to challenge them as occurred here. Let the process play out.

Gary

Edited September 29, 2014 by Gillman

[P&MLiquorsEric]

If they are buying 190 proof gns and re distilling once, is there that much change in the product?

How much tweaking to certain specs could really be taking place? Seems like more of a dog & pony show than an integral step in the making of a distinct product.

At what point will there be a distinction between distillers that actually brew/ferment and then distill and those that source gns and distill

[dcbt]

If they are buying 190 proof gns and re distilling once, is there that much change in the product?

How much tweaking to certain specs could really be taking place? Seems like more of a dog & pony show than an integral step in the making of a distinct product.

At what point will there be a distinction between distillers that actually brew/ferment and then distill and those that source gns and distill

Tito's claims they distill it six times, but to your point I don't know how much difference can be made from any of those and agree it would seem to be mostly a dog & pony show.

Edit to add that since vodka by definition has no flavor or smell, it would seem that you could redistill it until the cows come home without changing the product.

Edited September 29, 2014 by dcbt

[P&MLiquorsEric]

It would need to be distilled at least 2 or 3 times (possibly more) to reach 190 proof.

Re distilling is simply removing water and "impurities". At 190 proof going into still, how much more water can be removed?

[kickert]

You typically buy GNS at 190 proof to begin with, so no re-distillation is necessary. In fact, at around 192 proof, water and ethanol become an azetrope, which means the molecules cannot be separated by fractional distillation because the mixture behaves as a unified substance.

[Gillman]

Well, that's still a few more percentage points of proof to play with. Once again, I don't know how the vodka is made at or by Tito, but I don't see why further distillation(s) at a relatively low temperature wouldn't remove further trace congeners. And definitely GNS and vodka are not necessarily the same. Vodka is GNS that has no distinctive odor or taste. Some GNS does have a taste and needs to be refined further to eliminate it, in other words. This can be done by various treatments, charcoal is a famous one long used, but so is redistillation.

Gary

[squire]

If they are buying 190 proof gns and re distilling once, is there that much change in the product?

How much tweaking to certain specs could really be taking place? Seems like more of a dog & pony show than an integral step in the making of a distinct product.

Watering it down first is a safety precaution (you wouldn't put 190 proof anything in a pot still and apply heat) but heads and tails cuts? Give me a break, food grade stuff is clean to begin with so the only purpose for a tail cut is when the proof drops below 80. The real reason for running it through your still is to claim you made it.

[Gillman]

In some vodka production, neutral spirit with detectable odor or taste is subjected to a further distillation called extractive or water distillation. The GNS is mixed with water to a low proof and distilled again. The secondary elements close to water's vaporization rate that would normally not separate as kickert explained with a further conventional distillation, are drawn off because their solubility changes in a water bath (less soluble, easier to vaporize). After this is done, further rectifications bring the spirit back to 190 proof or higher. Maybe Tito's is doing something on these lines, I don't know. However, I do know that this procedure, or small changes in final proof (95% ABV vs. 96%, say) can result in a different congener picture, e.g. lower levels of acids or esters, with consequent changes in the taste profile.

Gary

[P&MLiquorsEric]

iMO the makeup of the water used to cut it down to 40% will have a much bigger effect on any flavor than redistilling does. After all, it is 60% water at that point.

[squire]

Don't they use Austin tap water? Forget where I heard that.

[Gillman]

iMO the makeup of the water used to cut it down to 40% will have a much bigger effect on any flavor than redistilling does. After all, it is 60% water at that point.

Both elements, assuming again a re-distillation(s), would contribute to a particular flavor and mouthfeel. Possibly the intent is to argue a handmade character based on such elements or others: we need to see.

Gary

[P&MLiquorsEric]

The bottom shelf vodkas that come in as gns actually use a flavoring additive to make them "taste" like vodka.

They are treating the average consumer like Homer Simpson when he stood under a single duff beer tank with three different spouts, each labeled "dry", "ice" and light. After sampling all three directly from the tap, he proclaimed "wow they really are different".

[Gillman]

Well, not sure whom you mean by they. Flavoring is another area, and I'm not sure only bottom shelvers use it, e.g. I've heard some reputed European brands have a little sugar.

At day's end, everyone has an impression, and fair enough. My impression is, wait and see.

Gary

Edited September 30, 2014 by Gillman

[squire]

I've heard the same thing about sugar in European vodkas Gary, though I believe it's used more as a texturing rather than a flavoring agent.

[Gillman]

Well, I think it has to be both Squire…

Gary

[cowdery]

The reality of vodka is that differences in the character of different brands are very subtle, so the fact that redistillation makes only a small difference isn't necessarily damning if that small difference makes a noticable difference in the drinking experience. It's not about gaining another proof point or two. It's about removing additional congeners. Vodka is odd in that the cheap, undesirable brands tend to have the most flavor, albeit a bad flavor; while the best and most desirable brands taste like water. Since none of the majors make their own vodka, this is something the majors are knowledgeable about and they have no interest in redistilling anything. DRinc, as mentioned, has a good reputation, as does the plant in Pekin, IL. ADM's juice is considered not so great. I haven't heard much about MGP (despite their whiskey footprint they're primarily a GNS producer), but I suspect they have different grades of beverage-quality alcohol.

Filtering, through charcoal or bone dust, is another way of rectifying GNS before bottling it as vodka.

With micros, it's fine if you want to make everything yourself. That's admirable. But vodka is the one thing a huge industrial facility can make better than the little guy can. I don't fault anyone for buying GNS. I just want them to be truthful about it.

Edited September 30, 2014 by cowdery

[kickert]

With micros, it's fine if you want to make everything yourself. That's admirable. But vodka is the one thing a huge industrial facility can make better than the little guy can. I don't fault anyone for buying GNS. I just want them to be truthful about it.

Yup... and that is certainly the case if you are talking about using a pot still. There is no way someone is going to distill vodka from grain to bottle without using a column still. The only thing you would use a pot still for in vodka production would be altering an existing spirit (i.e. using "local" water to drop the proof, and then raise it back up to GNS level).

[squire]

Does it have to be redistilled above 80 proof? If it met vodka standards before going into the pot still the designation wouldn't change.

[Gillman]

Does it have to be redistilled above 80 proof? If it met vodka standards before going into the pot still the designation wouldn't change.

I was thinking of this as well. I don't think you could re-distill to 190 with a pot still system anyway. You would need a rectifier to do it. I would think they may be re-distilling as high as they can in the pots and then letting the spirit down to 80 proof for bottling. But once again, we don't know…

Gary