The types of "Flippers" or is there even a difference?

[johnnybogey]

Been curious about this for a while and wanted to hear your thoughts.

So my question, is a "flipper" strictly someone that sells these bottles in the secondary for pure financial gain? or would the person in the above example be considered a "flipper".

Believe me, I am guilty of buying multiple bottles. I am kinda weird in this way in that I always like to have backup. If it turns out I am not a fan, I am open to trade it away as there may be bourbon available to others which are not readily available to me.

I guess this question kinda ties into the "Our ongoing observations about whether the boom has peaked" (Mods, please feel free to move). I guess as long as guys keep putting Pappy up on that pedestal, guys will continue to buy up all the middle tier limited releases in hopes of "trading up" to a bottle of Pappy, BTAC, Willet and such.

One final question, I am thinking about trading a WT Kentucky Spirit pewter top dusty for a bottle of Willett bourbon. I've never tried Willett bourbon and so I am curious to see what the fuss is all about. Does this make me a flipper? part of the problem?

This is probably nothing new to you guys but as I've said, I am fairly new at enjoying bourbon and was curious.

Edited September 23, 2015 by callmeox

[Tony Santana]

I suppose opinions may vary, but in my view a "swapper" is not a flipper. In your example above, the only way someone fits in the latter category is if they're "trading" up simply to then sell the newly acquired Pappy or whatever at an outrageous price on the secondary market. If they want to trade the Cured Oak for a GTS they intend to drink, live it up.

If you're buying a bottle for the purpose of turning it around and selling at a profit, even a modest one, you're a flipper, and you earn my scorn. You're preventing someone who would like to drink the contents of a bottle from acquiring it off the shelf at MSRP (or close to it). And I don't want to hear all the "free market" or "it's capitalism at work" stuff.

[johnnybogey]

I suppose opinions may vary, but in my view a "swapper" is not a flipper. In your example above, the only way someone fits in the latter category is if they're "trading" up simply to then sell the newly acquired Pappy or whatever at an outrageous price on the secondary market. If they want to trade the Cured Oak for a GTS they intend to drink, live it up.

If you're buying a bottle for the purpose of turning it around and selling at a profit, even a modest one, you're a flipper, and you earn my scorn. You're preventing someone who would like to drink the contents of a bottle from acquiring it off the shelf at MSRP (or close to it). And I don't want to hear all the "free market" or "it's capitalism at work" stuff.

Thanks for your input Tony. Yes, for me at least, all the bourbon I buy is for personal consumption / to be shared with friends on poker night (http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?23569-Building-Home-Bar-Need-your-opinion-and-progress-report/page4) or to be gifted to friends and family (i.e. my sister in law recently got into bourbon so earlier in the year when we visited, I brought over a bottle of ETL for her. She loved it).

[KyleCBreese]

I think you become a flipper when you have no intent to drink the bottle, and only purchase it to re-sell it. If you're trading because you no longer enjoy a certain bottling or want to try something else, I wouldn't consider that flipping.

[johnnybogey]

I think you become a flipper when you have no intent to drink the bottle, and only purchase it to re-sell it. If you're trading because you no longer enjoy a certain bottling or want to try something else, I wouldn't consider that flipping.

Agreed. But let me throw a little curve. For example, someone who goes to Smooth Ambler distillery and buys 10 bottles of the gift shop only release (I thought distilleries put a limit to how many a customer can buy). Maybe he loves the stuff or maybe he knows that it's in high demand and he can "swap" for some other bottles that's he's never tried.

Is there anything wrong with this? This goes back to Tony's response:

"If you're buying a bottle for the purpose of turning it around and selling at a profit, even a modest one, you're a flipper, and you earn my scorn. You're preventing someone who would like to drink the contents of a bottle from acquiring it off the shelf at MSRP (or close to it). And I don't want to hear all the "free market" or "it's capitalism at work" stuff."

This person may not be selling it for a profit (rather another bottle) but ultimately, this person is "preventing someone who would like to drink the contents of a bottle from acquiring it".

[PaulO]

The idea of flipping is to buy something and sell at a profit over a short period of time.

The fuss about Willett (WFE) is they got barrels from most of the major distilleries, aged them some more tears, bottled them at barrel proof. It's a real pretty package too.

[Paddy]

I don't consider a trade flipping. If I've been blessed to have something you can't find, a trade is a generous way to share without making someone feel that they owe you anything in return. I'd be careful with any Willett trade. You know what you've got with the Turkey, the other...not so much.

[Golzee]

I don't see a problem with trading or buying bottles as trade bait. Also, I don't see a problem with flipping bottles either (I have never done it). I admit I have considered trying to make a dime on the secondary market, but, with the intention of "bourbon money" paying for my bourbon hobby. You may not like what is happening out there, but, that's the way it is. People have been selling rare scotch and wine for years at auction...is that any different? I think everybody is pissed off at the lack of quantity of LE on the shelves since it/they used to be plentiful. As my dad says it's better to be pissed off, than pissed on.

[smokinjoe]

This is an interesting thread, and hits upon the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Which frankly is worth discussing. But, I would warn folks to steer very clear of discussing specifics on particular bottles, trades, and sales that you may have done, are considering, or would do. Or, this thread will vanish faster than a Pappy 15 at MSRP...

I'm not a Moderator, but I did stay at the GN the other night.

[Richnimrod]

Flippers suck donkey dick; traders, on the other hand, may provide one with an otherwise very unlikely opportunity.

Many traders do it to enhance someone else's experience(s). I've done this myself, with no aim to get anything I couldn't already get, or indeed already had.

It's quite similar to watching someone enjoy a pour of something you gave 'em for the first time.

[The Black Tot]

It is absolutely a question of intent at the point of purchase.

Have I traded? Yes, about a handful of times.

Have I ever bought a bottle where my original intent was not to drink it - NEVER. I wanted (and fully expected) to drink those bottles I traded away too! - I just wanted the ones I got for 'em more, and so did the other guy.

I think that's the line - if you're looking at a shelf, and you're thinking "I'll buy this in order to...", and the end of that sentence is anything other than "drink it eventually, gift it, or share it with friends", then there is where the line has been crossed.

Seeing Bottle X on a shelf and thinking "I don't want to drink this, but I can turn this into Bottle Y" - that's being part of the problem.

Basically, at that point you're "bottlenapping", and holding for ransom. You've chosen deliberately from the get go to squeeze a fellow enthusiast who should have gotten that bottle at MSRP in the first place.

If you find yourself thinking "I wouldn't drink this, but I should buy this because it's rare" - stop and shake yourself.

Another good indicator - if you find yourself asking yourself "Is this a dick move?" - It's probably a dick move.

In the case of your 10-buyer of the distillery special - if he plans to drink those 10 bottles himself, and he's buying them because he knows he goes through one a month and wants nearly a year's supply - great. Or even if he drinks one a year and wants a 10 YEAR supply - great!

If he's thinking "I can put half of these on Website Z and pay for the ones I want to drink" - there's where the arsehole threshold got crossed.

There is a ton of justification in the flipper world. "I can't afford the expensive bottles, so I buy the cheaper limiteds and trade up".

Another way to say that is to say "I can't afford the expensive bottles without screwing my other fellow enthusiasts who can".

I can't afford a Lamborghini. I don't swoop in and buy every limited edition Mustang and Corvette that gets made and scalp them to fellow car lovers until I can get one. Because if I did that, I'd be a complete dickhole.

You've got to ask yourself - is drinking that little bit better worth going to bed knowing you're THAT GUY?

It's not clever. It's selfish, it makes the hobby less fun for everyone else, and you're debasing yourself. Buy the bottle of OGD114, go home, and drink with integrity.

Edited September 23, 2015 by The Black Tot

[callmeox]

We understand that there is a secondary market 'out there' for bourbon and rye and the SB policy is that we prefer that it stay out of these forums.

Feel free to discuss, but any posts with overly specific information (our call) have been (and will be) removed.

We don't care what you have listed elsewhere and we don't care about trading sites. Just play nice and don't post specifics.

[johnnybogey]

Guys, I appreciate the responses thus far. Again, was simply curious and apologize for including specifics.

[petrel800]

if you find yourself asking yourself "Is this a dick move?" - It's probably a dick move.

I don't think I could put it in any better terms.

To the original poster, don't get too caught up in the Willett hype. The fanboy is strong with that label. To be fair, I've had some good WFEs and I've had some bad. Had a lot in between. I certainly don't get the hype other than it's a "cool label to be seen with." I've had several Old Scouts that were as or more memorable than a WFE.

[johnnybogey]

I don't think I could put it in any better terms.

To the original poster, don't get too caught up in the Willett hype. The fanboy is strong with that label. To be fair, I've had some good WFEs and I've had some bad. Had a lot in between. I certainly don't get the hype other than it's a "cool label to be seen with." I've had several Old Scouts that were as or more memorable than a WFE.

Petrol. I agree. May just need to try and find a bar by me so that I can try a pour.

Believe me, SAOS 7 year is one of my favorites and my daily pour along with EC12. Love the stuff.

[T Comp]

Come on, regardless of the type it's bourbon...not some consecrated religious object or life saving medicine. Why is there a belief of a certain type of flipper being some boogeyman and destroying our playground? Isn't it the unseen nuclear explosion in bourbon popularity. Not any different than a concert or sporting ticket, where massive flipping is now entrenched in our society. As long as a flipper is not abusing some special relationship with a retailer, distiller or buying group, and really that's their consequence, I could care less. The whole 3 tier system set up is the real problem and what needs to be abolished. The government share has already been collected when you buy retail and unless you view a private transaction between individuals being wrong just because it involves demon alcohol or other stupid shit that remains from prohibition, well that's your problem. Plenty here have more bottles than they will ever be able to drink in their lifetime, me included, even if drinking them was our original intention. Is there any moral distinction between a person who buys retail bottles to flip or a whiskey nervosa hoarder?

[flahute]

Can't add much to what's already been said, but the OP - I'd hang onto the WT. I'm a fan of WFE and have quite a few bottles that I really really like. The problem with WFE, as has been stated already, is that you don't know what you're going to get unless you've had the extreme luck of trying a bottle from the same barrel. It's possible, but unlikely unless it was a local barrel that you had the chance to try.

My thoughts on trading: I have no problem with it unless you get hung up on secondary value and try to capitalize on that. If for example you buy a PVW23yr at retail with the intent to trade it for $2,000 worth of secondary value than you are part of the problem.

[amg11]

I find some relief in the fact that many of the flippers interaction online in bourbon communities seem to still be embarrassed about what they're doing. I've seen plenty of photos of a countertop with 10 of the same LE bottle that have been released for all of 3 day, and the person always specifies that "the vast majority of these are not even for me". It's a weird dynamic for sure

[willmohawk5]

flippers are pathetic. If they really need the extra couple hundred dollars or whatever it is by selling limited produced bottles then maybe they're better off devoting some of that time in getting a real second job if they're that hard up for cash.

[dcbt]

This is a bit of a tangent, and coincides with the market boom threads. I hate flippers as much as the next person, but they exist because the bourbon market is wholly inefficient right now. Demand far, far, FAR exceeds supply, especially for LEs. There are two ways flipping ceases:

A) Demand slows down or supply ramps up. This might take years or even decades to happen.

Retail prices rise to match demand to supply.

Regarding B, hypothetical question: What if, as part of BT's annual BTAC info sheet release, they suggested MSRPs as follows:

GTS 325

ER 17 350

WLW 375

etc

Where would your venom lie? My guess is that there'd be a huge outcry against BT. "Eff that!" "I'm never buying a single BT product ever again.' And on and on it would go. Maybe this is why distilleries don't raise their prices. Maybe they like the cachet behind the hysteria. Maybe, like with sporting events or concerts, they like the idea that the everyday guy can pick up a bottle (theoretically anyway). Probably a combination of all of the above.

But as long as demand so far outstrips supply, leaving price equilibrium so far out of balance, flippers will take advantage of this inefficiency. Like many of you, I don't see it being worth their time and effort - yes, margins are good, but pure dollars earned per hour spent doesn't seem worth it. But it is to them.

What gets me more are the number of raffles going on now that take advantage of so many people not understanding math or odds. 15 people at $30 a spot for a GTS? Sure, people sign up. Yet they leave the same GTS at the store charging $400 (or from a flipper online) for it because it's too expensive. Most people don't understand the concept of expected value, and flippers are capitalizing on that too.

To me, trading isn't flipping. If two people can effectively get the bottles they want at MSRP or thereabouts, consumers are just solving distribution problems.

Edited September 23, 2015 by dcbt

[Tony Santana]

Interesting hypothetical, dcbt. I wouldn't blame BT for doing as you suggest, but the reason why they don't is likely multi-factorial. The BTAC is such a small percentage of their business I suspect the possible "I'm never buying a single BT product ever again" spillover effect is a disincentive, and I suspect they do sort of like the cachet/free PR that accompanies the hysteria. Personally, jacking the prices on BTAC wouldn't cause me to stop buying ER10 or OWA, etc., but it probably would mean I never buy a bottle of BTAC again. I get the occasional bottle under the current system, and I like all of them, but I wouldn't I'd pay $350 +. And while I don't consider myself to be rich, I do have disposable income.

Question - I they jacked the price to $375 for WLW (I have no idea where you got those numbers or if they're current secondary prices, since I don't buy on the secondary market, but let's say that's roughly accurate), would that just establish the new floor and would secondary pricing increase to $600 or whatever?

[The Black Tot]

Maybe, like with sporting events or concerts, they like the idea that the everyday guy can pick up a bottle (theoretically anyway). Probably a combination of all of the above.

Good analogy re: event tickets. How does everyone feel about ticket scalpers? Whoever said "good thing this guy was around to sell me a $100 ticket for $800?"

Funny thing is, event tickets kind of did the thing you were saying - eventually it got to be $500/seat to see the big arena acts from the get go!

I'm actually all right with some of the brands raising prices up to head secondary off at the pass - I'm not BUYING those bottles, but I wasn't buying them anyway because flippers were clearing the shelves before I got there anyway.

If I have to ask whom I'd rather have the mark-up go to - The distillery, the distributor, the liquor store owner, or the flipper - the answer is the distillery every time. Let them use it to fund expansion, and to motivate them to make more.

I think the distilleries are not doing this because they know this bubble will burst at some diffiucult-to-predict point, and they don't want to LOWER prices later, which would be some sort of loss of face for them.

People might think it's crazy to say so, but I actually think I LIKE the complications of the 3-tier system. The fact that it's messy and bureaucratic also makes it unpredictable - which is kind of the only way that frequent liquor store shoppers manage to get the odd wonderful surprise in this day and age.

Imagine if there was a national day where everyone knew BTAC hit the shelves everywhere, and everyone including the flippers knew in advance. No thanks.

The 3-tier in most states also prevents megachains from diverting all of the allocations - apart from the states that have recently allowed substantial allocations bypass the consumer and go straight to bars and restaurants (such as Cured Oak in Texas, dcbt - I'm waiting to see if Spec's is going to make this a most unwelcome trend).

No system is perfect. But the mess of 3-tier seems to keep a lot of smaller stores in business where every other retail industry has been bulldozed by big box stores.

[squire]

I am mildly irritated but not morally outraged that I can no longer get what I want, when I want, at a comparatively reasonable price. I blame current market conditions, without which flippers wouldn't exist.

[smokinjoe]

If one could waive a magic wand over Bourbonia and completely wipe out the Secondary Market and the "flippers clearing out the shelves", Joe Blow Enthusiast would have only the tiniest increase in availability and opportunity to buy the LE's, Specialty, and desirable bottles. The line of "reputable" purchasers is many rows deep. The "Market" is that deep.

There continues to be a mistaken belief that the "Secondary" market is "THE" market. It's not.

[kjbeggs]

I have no love for those who will try to snatch up as many premium bottles for the sole purpose of selling them for a profit.

I have several bottles that I have yet to open that I could "flip" for quite a bit more than I paid for them, but I bought them to drink/share.

That's not to say that if I were to ever enter into a dire financial situation, I wouldn't sell them to feed my family.

On the other hand, I have made a few trades among friends, bottle for bottle (and even offered a bottle for a Fantasy Football receiver), but I've never really bought a bottle specifically as Trade bait. (OK, I did recently pick up a second bottle of something highly touted, that I don't really care for, as a potential trade). Where I live, I could clear the shelves of Weller 12 and offer it up to those less fortunate, but I don't, because that's the kind of thing that has put us in the situation where W12 is now an "allocated item".