How much fake Pappy is out there?

[flahute]

Apologies to the mods if they believe this should be posted in the "all things PVW" thread. I elected to post here for greater exposure since the secondary markets are hotter than ever, and riskier than ever. There's a very good reason why buying/selling/trading is not allowed here. This post is meant as a heads up to those who are tempted by the secondary sites. This is not an issue for the majority of members here, especially the veterans. But we have a lot of new blood coming in every week and it's the new blood that is most likely to fall into this temptation. (I speak from experience. I was new blood not too long ago).

Sku posted an interview on his blog: http://recenteats.blogspot.com/2016/04/how-much-fake-pappy-is-out-there.html

Much of that content then ended up in an article on Esquire: http://www.esquire.com/food-drink/drinks/news/a43729/pappy-van-winkle-forgery/

This is pretty sobering stuff. As said above, it's not an issue for most of us. For those who are tempted, caveat emptor. (Just don't do it).

 

[Richnimrod]

What Steve said!    Just Don't Do IT!!!!     Leave the secondary market alone (Fools Only!).

By not encouraging the flippers, and flim-flammers, we may have some small impact and eventually slow down the trend toward such collection insanity and price gouging; leaving at least a few more bottle for those of us who wish drink and share the rarer ones, rather than make an extra buck off those who wish to gather and hoard.    Just sayin'.

[RussianBourbonLover]

It's crazy how people are selling the empty bottles of Pappy, allowing the tricksters/forgers to buy them and refill/resell with crap. I've never purchased off the 2ndary, but this was a foregone conclusion, with the $$$ being thrown around for some of these bourbons.  Im not sure if it's people that just want to taste the bourbon, or they want that bottle as a trophy, now? Anyone who has never tried Pappy can goto a Coronas Cigar store (one in every major city) and can try Pappy for $20 - $30.  Pricey, but better than 1k...

[Flyfish]

I thought everyone knew that W12 is the new Pappy. But, since you can't find it either, what is the new W12?

[b1gcountry]

I hear fireball is the new pappy. Tell everybody you know

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[Richnimrod]

10 hours ago, b1gcountry said:

I hear fireball is the new pappy. Tell everybody you know

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HA!   HA!    HA!   Good job, B1G!

[BigPapa]

17 hours ago, Flyfish said:

I thought everyone knew that W12 is the new Pappy. But, since you can't find it either, what is the new W12?

OWA????

[Harry in WashDC]

1 hour ago, BigPapa said:

OWA????

Oh, please, no no no.  Some stores around here ALREADY have marked their "single" OWA bottle on the shelf up to $99.99.

[Sluggo]

On April 9, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Harry in WashDC said:

Oh, please, no no no.  Some stores around here ALREADY have marked their "single" OWA bottle on the shelf up to $99.99.

Here in Central Indiana they don't even put Weller on the shelf and you are limited to one bottle no matter if your talking OWA, WL12 or Special Reserve.

[sbsbsb]

Is this really the problem it's purported to be?  I've heard rumors of this issue for the past couple of years, but have yet to see a "verified fake" that actually looks authentic.  I've seen no pictures of bottles with holes drilled in them, corks with holes, etc....only anecdotal, hypothetical musings.  In fact, the only fake I'm aware of is the one from this Reddit post:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/bourbon/comments/2orvce/pvw_15_foil_top_question/

 

Can anyone else provide photos or other hard evidence of a confirmed fake that talks, walks and looks like the real thing, including the foil closure with the gold banding and "K" cutout?

[flahute]

3 hours ago, sbsbsb said:

Is this really the problem it's purported to be?  I've heard rumors of this issue for the past couple of years, but have yet to see a "verified fake" that actually looks authentic.  I've seen no pictures of bottles with holes drilled in them, corks with holes, etc....only anecdotal, hypothetical musings.  In fact, the only fake I'm aware of is the one from this Reddit post:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/bourbon/comments/2orvce/pvw_15_foil_top_question/

 

Can anyone else provide photos or other hard evidence of a confirmed fake that talks, walks and looks like the real thing, including the foil closure with the gold banding and "K" cutout?

Read one of the links I posted in the very first post of this thread. The information you seek lies therein.

[sbsbsb]

Still largely anecdotal...he says he's verified two fakes/refills, but doesn't provide links.  Did he report the seller to the authorities?  If he's going through all the work to track them to the extent that he has, I'd hope he'd wrap it up by contacting law enforcement.  And if so, then that should be public record, and details should be shared.

 

I don't want to sound like I'm attacking him, because he's obviously trying to protect the integrity of the hobby.  I'd just like some details...how about the thread he's citing on the forums...does anyone have a link to that?

 

I've personally always believed that the buyers of these empty bottles on Ebay were likely unscrupulous bar/restaurant owners.  Why go through the trouble of recreating a seal, shipping the bottle, etc....when you can just fill it 3/4 full of Weller and start selling it at $70/pour?  And use that bottle over and over again.  I can tell you I'd personally be much more comfortable buying PVW on the secondary market with a legit looking foil seal than paying $70-$100 per pour from an open bottle at a bar in Pennsylvania! (no offense to PA, just picked a random state!)

[flahute]

58 minutes ago, sbsbsb said:

I don't want to sound like I'm attacking him, because he's obviously trying to protect the integrity of the hobby.  I'd just like some details...how about the thread he's citing on the forums...does anyone have a link to that?

Private facebook bourbon selling groups. There's many of them out there. A link does you no good if you're not a member. 

[sbsbsb]

On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 10:39 PM, flahute said:

Private facebook bourbon selling groups. There's many of them out there. A link does you no good if you're not a member. 

I get that, but if it was verified fraud, there's no reason screenshots or other salacious (and pertinent) details couldn't be shared.  Otherwise, it's still really just hearsay.  Again, I'd just like to see proof of more verified fraud, since both the articles named above seem to be implying that it's somewhat widespread.  Unless I see evidence of a verified fraudulent bottle that shows the proper seal/foiling, I'm still of the belief that the majority of these empty bottles are winding up at bars, restaurants and the occasional hobbyist who wants to fool his friends, family and/or clients.

Edited April 18, 2016 by sbsbsb

[berto]

37 minutes ago, sbsbsb said:

I get that, but if it was verified fraud, there's no reason screenshots or other salacious (and pertinent) details couldn't be shared.  Otherwise, it's still really just hearsay.  Again, I'd just like to see proof of more verified fraud, since both the articles named above seem to be implying that it's somewhat widespread.  Unless I see evidence of a verified fraudulent bottle that shows the proper seal/foiling, I'm still of the belief that the majority of these empty bottles are winding up at bars, restaurants and the occasional hobbyist who wants to fool his friends, family and/or clients.

I followed the saga in a few groups and saw some of the pics.  

http://imgur.com/w8kTaFo

Note the differences.  One bottle of each is a knockoff.

We can guess what percentage of ebay empties go to bars vs what go to refills on the black market but it's still a stream of fake Pappy.

[sbsbsb]

51 minutes ago, berto said:

I followed the saga in a few groups and saw some of the pics.  

http://imgur.com/w8kTaFo

Note the differences.  One bottle of each is a knockoff.

We can guess what percentage of ebay empties go to bars vs what go to refills on the black market but it's still a stream of fake Pappy.

Thanks!  This is a great illustration....it's very obvious that the bottles on the left in each pair are much lighter in color than they should be.  It is odd that both fakes have wrapped foils, though.  While I'm sure they're there to hide the imperfections of the foil seals themselves, it still doesn't show me whether the "fakers" are adept at creating 100% legit-looking foil seals with the K-style cutouts.  I wonder why the person who took the pics didn't show the seals?

If you don't mind me asking, how were each of these bottles verified as fakes, aside from the obvious color issues?  And where were they sold?  Were authorities contacted or any other action taken against the seller?

Edited April 19, 2016 by sbsbsb

[berto]

1 hour ago, sbsbsb said:

DThanks!  This is a great illustration....it's very obvious that the bottles on the left in each pair are much lighter in color than they should be.  It is odd that both fakes have wrapped foils, though.  While I'm sure they're there to hide the imperfections of the foil seals themselves, it still doesn't show me whether the "fakers" are adept at creating 100% legit-looking foil seals with the K-style cutouts.  I wonder why the person who took the pics didn't show the seals?

If you don't mind me asking, how were each of these bottles verified as fakes, aside from the obvious color issues?  And where were they sold?  Were authorities contacted or any other action taken against the seller?

I''m pretty sure the refilled rye bottle number matched an empty sale on eBay.  Don't remember the 15.  Secondary sales on both.  Bottle spot identified fraudulent sellers and notified authorities in at least one instance.  Fake seals are easily and cheaply obtained from Asia.  Wax is easy to fake too.  On the black market you pays your money and you takes your chances.

[PaulO]

Here are a couple things to consider.  If people are participating in the black market (illeagle activity) selling or buying, they can't go complain to the authorities when things go wrong.  Also, the main way people detect counterfeit anything is by experience comparing to confirmed legitamite item.  A person that has never seen a real one may not be able to spot a fake.

[Fatj82]

New here, so I know I am going to get my balls busted...  I recently bought 3 bottles of orvw, a booker's rye, and an eagle rare 17 on the secondary market as a graduation gift for my son.  After some reading, I am super nervous that I bought fakes.  They look legit to me, but I have no idea how to tell.  I don't want to open to taste it because A. I don't think I would be able to tell the difference and B. If I were to find out it was a fake, the bottle will hurt much more when it is full!! lol.  any help would be greatly appreciated. 

[Bourbonmakesmepoop]

8 minutes ago, Fatj82 said:

New here, so I know I am going to get my balls busted...  I recently bought 3 bottles of orvw, a booker's rye, and an eagle rare 17 on the secondary market as a graduation gift for my son.  After some reading, I am super nervous that I bought fakes.  They look legit to me, but I have no idea how to tell.  I don't want to open to taste it because A. I don't think I would be able to tell the difference and B. If I were to find out it was a fake, the bottle will hurt much more when it is full!! lol.  any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Send pics - and samples if you oblige

[b1gcountry]

Just drink them and be happy. You are more likely getting the real stuff, especially with the bookers rye. IMO

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[VT Mike]

On a related note, here's an interesting article about a bottle of 1903 Laphroaig that was proven to be a fake through forensic testing.

https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2016/12/fake-scotch-removed-from-auction-circuit/

[berto]

1 hour ago, Fatj82 said:

New here, so I know I am going to get my balls busted...  I recently bought 3 bottles of orvw, a booker's rye, and an eagle rare 17 on the secondary market as a graduation gift for my son.  After some reading, I am super nervous that I bought fakes.  They look legit to me, but I have no idea how to tell.  I don't want to open to taste it because A. I don't think I would be able to tell the difference and B. If I were to find out it was a fake, the bottle will hurt much more when it is full!! lol.  any help would be greatly appreciated. 

 

You're probably fine though the only way to know is to have it tasted by someone who knows what it's supposed to taste like.  If buying on secondary you really need to know what you're doing and trust the seller.  Even then you could still get burned.  You've already spent the money and took your chances.  You can open and drink and probably be happy or you can stew over what might be a rip job and be taunted by bottles you're afraid to open.   

[Fatj82]

... I tried to upload some photos and they are all too big.  My only real concern is the foil on the top of the bottles.  They aren't perfect lol.  The 2015 looks like something was either sitting on it or ??? Not that its terribly off. The 2 2016's just aren't perfect.  I could just be paranoid.  I did open the bookers rye as I have 2 others, and damn, that's the stuff for sure.  I appreciate the advice and not busting my stones too hard!

[jvd99]

Some more links regarding fake scotch, which has been a problem for years.  Given that Pappy (and other bourbons - gasp! - not named Pappy) is now rivaling the most sought after single malts in terms of worldwide auction sale prices, one would have to be a fool to not believe counterfeiting is happening with high end bourbon

 

http://www.whiskyfun.com/war.html

(lots of pictures in this one for sbsbsb)

 

https://scotchwhisky.com/magazine/latest-news/12015/fake-whisky-haul-could-be-tip-of-iceberg/

 

In Asia on a mass scale

http://www.eater.com/drinks/2015/6/9/8752465/inside-the-unsavory-world-of-counterfeit-whisky

 

Why it's hard to spot fakes and the difficulty of regular folks like us to produce pictures of fakes on demand as requested earlier in this thread  (or in other words - a good fake is nearly impossible to detect by a regular consumer who is the counterfeiter's target victim)

http://www.perkinelmer.com/corporate/stories/detecting-counterfeit-whisky.html

 

Of course, wine fraud is probably as old as  wine itself

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_fraud

 

There are hundreds of sources of information on the counterfeiting of wine and spirits with even the most rudimentary google searches.  The above is a fraction of that information and should be a cautionary tale for anyone naive enough to think the bourbon secondary market is safe, secure and without fraudulent participants.  

 

Cheers.