Jump to content

What Do you "Expect" From a Private Barrel Selection


El Vino
This topic has been inactive for at least 365 days, and is now closed. Please feel free to start a new thread on the subject! 

Recommended Posts

Tonight I did a SBS comparison of an off the shelf Old Weller Antique 107 and a Private Barrel selection OWA from Bayway in Elizabeth, NJ.  I tilt toward wheaters and OWA is always open on my bar.  As this was my first experience with a PS OWA, I wasn't sure what to expect.  That got me thinking about what I "expect" from a private barrel selection.  Obviously you hope to like it as much or better than the off the shelf expression, but what was I hoping for?   Deeper flavors?  Better balance? More concentration?  The PS Four Roses recipes stand out in the uniqueness.  What do you look for in a PS expression of a brand you already like?  Would love to hear from those have been involved in selecting these barrels?

Edited by El Vino
Grammar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everything I like about the brand with a little extra nuance to keep me engaged

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The 4R PS offerings are in a class by themselves.  Other barrel select, store select, etc., are not as consistently above the brand's average, IMO, as the 4R program's offerings.  However, I do hope for - and usually find - something inside the brand's expected profile BUT a thicker mouthfeel, more complex entry and swallow, and longer finish.

 

Some of this can be attributed to wishful thinking, I am sure, but . . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be real, in todays market you're simply hoping to find a decent representation of the brand (out of however many barrels you get to sample) from what the distillery is willing to offer up.  Sometimes the selection options can be very good, sometimes ... not so good.

 

With that in mind, I have no expectation that a PS bottle will be better than the standard offering.  That is, unless I know who did the picking. :D  In those cases, I already have a pretty good idea of what I'm getting into... as I know whose palates line up with mine through past experience.

 

To sum it up, if I'm unfamiliar with the store or selection team, I would not pay more for a PS than the standard bottle.  Especially if the store or team are new to the game, as the distillery isn't likely to give them anything extraordinary to choose from.      

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Paddy said:

the distillery isn't likely to give them anything extraordinary to choose from.      

 

The sheer volume of barrels makes me question this.  I feel that whoever is doing the picking has the same choices as the next.  With that said, I hope that a private select single barrel is smooth compared to the regular offering.  I think that questionable barrels get mingled into a normal batch.  But, when I buy a single barrel select, I expect it to be what the distillery thinks a brand should be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I expect something different vs the normal expression.  It could be deeper flavors and aromas, it could be completely different flavors and aromas,  it could be largely the same and just be sold at a better price, overall better quality (store dependent), or maybe all of the above?  

 

A store near me used to do the Four Roses SB 50% OBSV private bottlings all the time.  They were by and large good representatives of the standard SB-nothing special-but since she bought them a barrel at a time, the owner was able to offer a low price, $30-$33 I think, and it got her name out there.  It retails $40+ elsewhere.  That's just as useful to me as a honey barrel of EWSB, Henry McKenna, OWA, or any other private bottling.  I have to agree that the Four Roses private bottlings are in a class apart, though.

 

If I had more money I'd try to talk HH into a private bottling of Bernheim wheat.  I am pretty sure there are some great barrels lying around and I don't think it is so oversold that they have to worry about allocating it.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me, I'm hoping for "extreme".  Either the barrel that is the most extreme example of what I love about the particular label (the good stuff "amplified" as it were), or the one that is the most extreme outlier in a good way (maybe it doesn't remind me a lot of the brand, but is really unique!)  In both cases, I'm wanting the whiskey to be above average on the nose AND the palate, and one I'll be happy with enjoying for years to come.  

 

I used to avoid PS selections when I started because I didn't know what to expect and I didn't want to find one that was amazing only to be let down by others.  In hindsight, that was kind of silly (protecting myself from the dangers of amazing selections . . . )  I don't automatically buy PS selections now either (if I don't know what a store's track record is, I'm a bit gun-shy), and thanks to tips from other SB'ers, I know keep a collapsible cup in the car so if I find a local PS offering that I might want to stock up on IF it is amazing, I can take a quick taste in the parking lot. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I expect something at least as enjoyable as the standard offering (and better if they're charging a premium). 

 

I feel eel like the four roses private selections aren't a fair comparison to others since only one of the ten recipes can actually be had as a non-selection version and they come at barrel proof too.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, garbanzobean said:

 

 

If I had more money I'd try to talk HH into a private bottling of Bernheim wheat.  I am pretty sure there are some great barrels lying around and I don't think it is so oversold that they have to worry about allocating it.

 

 

I believe they might. I'm on a mailing list for a liquor store that advertises an exclusive bottle of Bernheim Wheat whiskey 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, JoeTerp said:

 

I believe they might. I'm on a mailing list for a liquor store that advertises an exclusive bottle of Bernheim Wheat whiskey 

Stores inside MD can't ship out of state so it'd be a bad place to do an SB barrel or other barrel split, and Bernheim isn't a great seller at most of the stores I shop at anyway, so they likely wouldn't go for it unless I was buying the majority of the bottles.  Upside: Lifetime supply of excellent Bernheim.  Downside: not being around to enjoy said excellent whiskey due to justifiable homicide on the part of my wife.  No sane jury would convict her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 of the 3 local chains we've bought BT Single Barrel Selections from offered a taste up front.  Nice touch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Golzee said:

The sheer volume of barrels makes me question this.  I feel that whoever is doing the picking has the same choices as the next.  With that said, I hope that a private select single barrel is smooth compared to the regular offering.  I think that questionable barrels get mingled into a normal batch.  But, when I buy a single barrel select, I expect it to be what the distillery thinks a brand should be.

 

The choices are not the same.  Bob's Value Liquors may have signed up, waited two years for their first shot and got three or four samples shipped out to Four Corners, Wherever to select from.  Whereas the Liquor Barn team takes the 20 minute drive over to the distillery for the 128th time, then goes to lunch with the master distiller after they finish their samples.

 

Another good example is the GBS.  They've spent years building relationships when doing their selections.  Due to that, they have access to some great barrels... not always, but more often than not.  The volume you do, past history and relationships matter now more than ever ...  

 

... as the demand and pressure on the distillery's to keep product on the shelves continues to eat into the ever dwindling stock of good barrels they are willing to turn loose for their respective PS programs.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Golzee said:

The sheer volume of barrels makes me question this.  I feel that whoever is doing the picking has the same choices as the next.  With that said, I hope that a private select single barrel is smooth compared to the regular offering.  I think that questionable barrels get mingled into a normal batch.  But, when I buy a single barrel select, I expect it to be what the distillery thinks a brand should be.

To add to what Paddy said, those with connections, history, and knowledge know what questions to ask to make sure they get virgin barrels to choose from, specifically from preferred warehouse locations. Those without that, may end up getting barrels already passed over. It can make a big difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have never been to a distillery of any kind.  That said, one has to wonder if the distilleries maintain some kind of database of the barrels in their warehouses.  Do they sample their barrels and "grade" them in anticipation of their being allocated to a particular brand?  In so doing, do they know the honey barrels in advance?  With millions of barrels in various stages of aging, it seems like a lot to manage.  If they simply allocate production based on recipe and aging location within the warehouse, it is entirely possible that they themselves have no idea which barrels are honey barrels and the act of pulling barrels from inventory for a private barrel tasting is more random than anything else.  Anybody have any insight?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, El Vino said:

I have never been to a distillery of any kind.  That said, one has to wonder if the distilleries maintain some kind of database of the barrels in their warehouses.  Do they sample their barrels and "grade" them in anticipation of their being allocated to a particular brand?  In so doing, do they know the honey barrels in advance?  With millions of barrels in various stages of aging, it seems like a lot to manage.  If they simply allocate production based on recipe and aging location within the warehouse, it is entirely possible that they themselves have no idea which barrels are honey barrels and the act of pulling barrels from inventory for a private barrel tasting is more random than anything else.  Anybody have any insight?

 

I don't know about grading them, but they do have in mind which label they will grow up to be when they lay them down (that goes into where they'll age them, etc).  Doesn't mean that is what they will wind up being.  When we did an ETL selection, they rolled out 9 barrels from the same rick, all distilled on the same day.  At least one (maybe two) I thought were below the bar of what they should bottle as ETL (and I would hope those go to be blended off into whatever uses the same mashbill).  During a FR private selection, I heard from a member (so heresay) that Jim Rutledge remarked to another FR employee quietly that if we had chosen one of the barrels, he would say something because it was "that bad".  We didn't (in fact, he tasted along with us, but kept his voting to himself until after we selected - and he thought we done good!)  

 

I think they do sampling across lots to see how things are aging, as they have enough experience to see if things are within expectations.  But I don't think they sample every barrel along the way (at least before preparing to bottle it).  Might they sample at that point and go "Wow - this is a winner, don't let these slobs buy THAT one!"?  I guess they could, although seems like more trouble than it is worth.  You want your customers to find those gems, otherwise the private selections lose some luster.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Garbanzo: if I had unlimited funds and special access to HH stock, I'd be looking for more of the wheated bourbon they released under the Parker's Heritage line????, heck with  Bernheim.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, El Vino said:

Garbanzo: if I had unlimited funds and special access to HH stock, I'd be looking for more of the wheated bourbon they released under the Parker's Heritage line????, heck with  Bernheim.  

Sure I'd take that too, but I enjoy Bernheim.  I don't know what the supply x demand situation is for Bernheim vs wheated Heaven Hill, but I made the original post with the assumption that Bernheim has a more favorable ratio of supply to demand, thus more honey barrels available.  I'm sure they produce significantly less of it, so maybe not.

Edited by garbanzobean
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/27/2016 at 0:00 AM, Paddy said:

. . . To sum it up, if I'm unfamiliar with the store or selection team, I would not pay more for a PS than the standard bottle.  Especially if the store or team are new to the game, as the distillery isn't likely to give them anything extraordinary to choose from.      

Luckily, Washington DC laws allow stores to offer samples to persons otherwise old enough to drink.  I have asked for tastes, if available, on several occasions.  Experience has allowed me to learn which stores have pickers that pick things I, too, like so I'm not as careful buying without tasting in those stores; I remain careful in at least one other store and even after tasting have passed more than once.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, garbanzobean said:

Sure I'd take that too, but I enjoy Bernheim.  I don't know what the supply x demand situation is for Bernheim vs wheated Heaven Hill, but I made the original post with the assumption that Bernheim has a more favorable ratio of supply to demand, thus more honey barrels available.  I'm sure they produce significantly less of it, so maybe not.

 

No disrespect to you or Bernheim.  I liked the PH Wheat Whiskey, it just didn't have the depth or complexity I was hoping to find in an aged Bernheim.  In that case, I was "expcting" more of everything...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, El Vino said:

 

No disrespect to you or Bernheim.  I liked the PH Wheat Whiskey, it just didn't have the depth or complexity I was hoping to find in an aged Bernheim.  In that case, I was "expcting" more of everything...

Oh, I didn't think the PH Wheat was much to write home about either.  I strongly prefer the regular Bernheim. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Bernheim is a great idea.  It's a small bit of what they do, so there's little pressure on the brand and I'd guess that some of those barrels could get quite tasty with a little TLC! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On August 27, 2016 at 9:41 PM, GaryT said:

 

I don't know about grading them, but they do have in mind which label they will grow up to be when they lay them down (that goes into where they'll age them, etc).  Doesn't mean that is what they will wind up being.  When we did an ETL selection, they rolled out 9 barrels from the same rick, all distilled on the same day.  At least one (maybe two) I thought were below the bar of what they should bottle as ETL (and I would hope those go to be blended off into whatever uses the same mashbill).  During a FR private selection, I heard from a member (so heresay) that Jim Rutledge remarked to another FR employee quietly that if we had chosen one of the barrels, he would say something because it was "that bad".  We didn't (in fact, he tasted along with us, but kept his voting to himself until after we selected - and he thought we done good!)  

 

I think they do sampling across lots to see how things are aging, as they have enough experience to see if things are within expectations.  But I don't think they sample every barrel along the way (at least before preparing to bottle it).  Might they sample at that point and go "Wow - this is a winner, don't let these slobs buy THAT one!"?  I guess they could, although seems like more trouble than it is worth.  You want your customers to find those gems, otherwise the private selections lose some luster.  

I can clear the air on the heresay  as I was standing right next to JR when he discreetly asked the 4R associate assisting with the selection just how exactly that barrel made it through to the selection batch.

To me that suggests a pre screening process at least at 4R is in place though its not fool proof as we experienced first hand. 

On topic I think a private selection should be outstanding in a way that makes you crave another pour. I don't care if the profile matches the perceived profile of the label under consideration, what is paramount to me is how much do I want another pour of what it is I have in my tasting glass? 

The most recent selection featured some nice barrels and after each sample I wrote a few words from my impressions, when I got to the barrel that was ultimately selected I wrote only 1 word "winner" this was the one beyond any doubt I wanted to have again and again... 

I discussed this philosophy recently with a local store owner who stated that picking well but within the expected profile is more the objective he has so as to not throw the customer base a curve when they are expecting a certain thing based on the label on the bottle. 

2 viewpoints, both valid, but for my money I only want the truly outstanding barrel regardless of what the label on the bottle ultimately may be.

Another point is that It is not required to select anything from what is presented, if a clear winner doesn't emerge the selection can end there or the distillery can opt to present additional barrels for consideration.

The most recent selection winner IMO is a very special barrel, the runner up was also good but again IMO it was a nice example of the expected profile, a very good version of average, the winner on the other hand was extraordinary in that "OK I definitely want, make that MUST HAVE  more of this!!!"

That defines what a good private barrel selection is to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lot's of great info. Nice to know since now a place next to me offers PS bottles, never had that option in Utah. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, kcgumbohead said:

I can clear the air on the heresay  as I was standing right next to JR when he discreetly asked the 4R associate assisting with the selection just how exactly that barrel made it through to the selection batch.

To me that suggests a pre screening process at least at 4R is in place though its not fool proof as we experienced first hand. 

On topic I think a private selection should be outstanding in a way that makes you crave another pour. I don't care if the profile matches the perceived profile of the label under consideration, what is paramount to me is how much do I want another pour of what it is I have in my tasting glass? 

The most recent selection featured some nice barrels and after each sample I wrote a few words from my impressions, when I got to the barrel that was ultimately selected I wrote only 1 word "winner" this was the one beyond any doubt I wanted to have again and again... 

I discussed this philosophy recently with a local store owner who stated that picking well but within the expected profile is more the objective he has so as to not throw the customer base a curve when they are expecting a certain thing based on the label on the bottle. 

2 viewpoints, both valid, but for my money I only want the truly outstanding barrel regardless of what the label on the bottle ultimately may be.

Another point is that It is not required to select anything from what is presented, if a clear winner doesn't emerge the selection can end there or the distillery can opt to present additional barrels for consideration.

The most recent selection winner IMO is a very special barrel, the runner up was also good but again IMO it was a nice example of the expected profile, a very good version of average, the winner on the other hand was extraordinary in that "OK I definitely want, make that MUST HAVE  more of this!!!"

That defines what a good private barrel selection is to me.

 

Yes, I didn't hear him say it but I thought everyone there pretty much knew that it had been the case afterwards. Maybe not. I was kind of glad it was there as it helped validate the process for me! Not that I expected us to end up with a "bad" one given the group we had involved. Not sure how much I contributed but there were plenty of people in our group at that pick who had a lot of experience sampling barrels!

 

Having since had the opportunity to help pick barrels for my local store on a number of occasions I can confirm that retailers tend to pick barrels that their broader customer base is going to recognize and like because after all they are trying to sell them! Picks that are a great but perhaps a bit off the typical profile are probably better served for a group of enthusiasts as versus a store. That said the owner I have picked with will sometimes buy one that is really good even if it is not quite the typical profile because 1) he likes it and 2) he has a smaller store and knows he will be there to talk them up with his customers.

 

it is indeed a shame we can't get a taste of something at the store here in Georgia but some owners I have had the chance to talk with seem to fear the potential for liability that might create for them and don't want to even have the option.

Edited by tanstaafl2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I expect something special and for a decent price.  Obviously, expectations are based on who selects the barrel.  I don't care how much the barrel matches the brand profile.  As mentioned earlier, I want something that encourages me to refill my glass or to buy more bottles.   I don't mind paying the same price as the standard shelf offerings but I find it difficult to pay up for a private selection.  This may be because in the past many private selections were priced a little below the standard price.  I understand that times are different but if I like a brand, it will take something special to make me want to pay a premium for a private barrel of that brand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.