Anyone tried or know anything about Joseph Magnus bourbon?

[WhiskeyBlender]

On 12/14/2017 at 9:19 PM, flahute said:

Did they marry in one of the barrels or in a stainless steel tank? (Or other).

Sorry flahute that I'm just now getting round to your question. These were married in a stainless steel tank, although I would have preferred to use the two 16 and 18 year old barrels. A spirit usually recovers faster and marries more organically in a barrel than it does in stainless. I can't remember why we didn't marry them in the barrels, but for whatever every reason, it didn't happen. 

[EarthQuake]

On 12/31/2017 at 8:54 PM, WhiskeyBlender said:

Sorry flahute that I'm just now getting round to your question. These were married in a stainless steel tank, although I would have preferred to use the two 16 and 18 year old barrels. A spirit usually recovers faster and marries more organically in a barrel than it does in stainless. I can't remember why we didn't marry them in the barrels, but for whatever every reason, it didn't happen. 

Here's a question since you mention recovering and marriage, and seem to be an expert on such topics. I've made a few vattings before and sometimes when I am done they taste rather bad, especially if I've used more than two or so whiskies. A made one not that long ago that I was sure I would like, and wasn't happy with it. I let it sit in the bottle for a few weeks and then it was great. So the question is a few parts:

1. Does the whiskey really change that much or is it my imagination?
2. Assuming it changes, why and what happens?
3. Is there a specific amount of time one should wait with a small vatting?

Thanks!

Edited January 6, 2018 by EarthQuake

[WhiskeyBlender]

18 hours ago, EarthQuake said:

Here's a question since you mention recovering and marriage, and seem to be an expert on such topics. I've made a few vattings before and sometimes when I am done they taste rather bad, especially if I've used more than two or so whiskies. A made one not that long ago that I was sure I would like, and wasn't happy with it. I let it sit in the bottle for a few weeks and then it was great. So the question is a few parts:

1. Does the whiskey really change that much or is it my imagination?
2. Assuming it changes, why and what happens?
3. Is there a specific amount of time one should wait with a small vatting?

Thanks!

Hi Earthquake! This might be a rather long post to fully answer your questions, so please bear with me. I work as a Master Blender and also as a maturation, warehousing, and blending consultant for a number of distilleries both here in the States and internationally. Before I started working with Bourbon and other whiskeys, my original training was in the French Cognac & brandy tradition, so I take more that approach to blending/vatting/mingling in general. So that's how I know this stuff. At any rate, a general rule about blending or mingling 2 or more whiskeys is that 2 plus 2 rarely equals 4. It might equal 5, or 7, or even negative 3! So, even if you are doing a very simple blend, and let's say you have 2 excellent whiskey barrels (or, in your case, bottles), it doesn't necessarily mean that because those whiskeys are great on their own, that they'll make for an even better blend. In fact, what you end up with might not be as good as the original components. It sounds like you've probably seen some of this already in your own blending experiments. 

 

So, with that in mind, to answer your question #1, yes, the whiskey really DOES change that much once you've mingled them. Which leads us to question #2, why? Well, think about all the chemical transformations that have been occurring in a bourbon barrel for X amount of years. First, there is the initial addition of oak extractives into the whiskey, which is later followed by oxidative reactions that occur due to the ingress and egress of oxygen into the barrel, so that new acids, esters, etc. begin to form. So, now you take two barrels (or bottles) and mingle them. Perhaps one of them had more caramelized wood sugars, or lactones, or more tannins and barrel spice, or more ethyl acetate development, acetic acid, guaiacol, etc., than the other one. This will influence that new blend. Maybe one of the barrels was housed in a cool, damp location in a warehouse so that the proof dropped over time, also making it rounder and softer on the palate. If this is then combined with a barrel that spent it's maturation life in a hotter, higher, and drier location of a warehouse where the characteristics of the whiskey tend to be a little hotter, more intense, and spicier in general, the end result of the combination will be a little different. And so if you combine two bottles of whiskey, both of which had these  particular characteristics, you will start developing new chemical reactions between the components of those two bottles, which will further transform. And as you noticed when you first combined your bottles, the result wasn't that pleasing. My bet is that it was kind of angular and harsh? But as those new chemical reactions continued to develop over time, with the help of a little oxygen in your bottle, I bet that the whiskey started to soften and the blend began to "relax," right? 

 

In a production setting, I always recommend that a mingling, no matter how small, be allowed to marry for at least 1 month before bottling, although if it is possible to fit 3 to 6 months into the production schedule, that is even better. However, some distilleries can't do that long for practical purposes. At any rate, for home experimentation, I would recommend at least 1 month to really start seeing the blend "relax," and to observe how entirely different aromas than those that were in the original components begin to develop. Maybe the blend brings out some orange citrus that wasn't necessarily there before? Etc. Maybe you might want to try the experiment again and let it marry for a month, and every week on, say, a Friday, taste the blend and take notes to see what kind of changes you are noticing that week. 

 

While most people can't get access to real barrel samples, I encourage you to experiment with, say, a product like Blanton's, where you can buy bottlings that stored in different ricks of warehouse H (combine a bottle from rick #4 with one from #16, for example), and you can start learning more about how location in the warehouse is affected by humidity, temperature, barometric pressure, etc. Or take a bourbon from the same distillery but that is always bottled at cask strength, and combine two different bottlings of it (ex., combine a bottle at 60.2% abv with one at 53%), and see what happens. Or combine two different yeast profiles from 4R, etc.. There are so many ways you could take these experiments. Always hold back a small sample of the original components, your "controls", to compare to your blends. At any rate, you'll probably gain a new insight into the art of maturation and blending, and just how difficult it can be to keep consistency over time, and how to do it well, etc. And, you'll certainly have a fun time doing it! 

 

Again, sorry for the long explanation, but I hope this helps to answer your questions, and I hope you keep up the experimentation! Cheers, Nancy

 

 

Edited January 6, 2018 by WhiskeyBlender
grammatical errors

[EarthQuake]

@WhiskeyBlender: I loved the detailed explanation, it really helps me understanding what's going on better. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.

 

To see if I'm keeping up: Essentially what is happening is that each source whiskey has unique chemical compounds that make up the flavor profile, and when combined with other whiskies, the chemicals create new flavor compounds that may be entirely different than the base whiskies. The chemical reaction isn't necessarily instant, so over time, as the chemical compounds linger further the flavors continue to change. The 2+2 doesn't equal 4 analogy makes a lot of sense.

 

As far as my blends, you're correct in that generally as soon as I finish and taste them, they tend to be harsh, generally there is an overpowering "alcohol" (for lack of a better term) flavor that masks a lot of what was interesting from the original source whiskies. Generally as I drink more, and more oxygen is introduced into the bottle, the blend mellows out, gets better overall, and I can pick up more of what I liked from the original whiskies.

 

Your suggestions for continued experiments sound great. Doing my own blend from 4RSBPS bottles is something I've thought about doing and definitely want to try at some point. Usually when I get a bottle I drink it too quickly so I haven't managed to save any for blends, but you know, life goals!

 

Thanks again for the response. I always learn a lot from your posts.

Edited January 7, 2018 by EarthQuake

[birdie]

Just got to try some Cigar Blend batch #7, it is really good, I found it very fruit forward, probably from the barrel finish employed, rich and tasty, similar in a way to HWMD.

[WhiskeyBlender]

15 hours ago, EarthQuake said:

@WhiskeyBlender: I loved the detailed explanation, it really helps me understanding what's going on better. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.

 

To see if I'm keeping up: Essentially what is happening is that each source whiskey has unique chemical compounds that make up the flavor profile, and when combined with other whiskies, the chemicals create new flavor compounds that may be entirely different than the base whiskies. The chemical reaction isn't necessarily instant, so over time, as the chemical compounds linger further the flavors continue to change. The 2+2 doesn't equal 4 analogy makes a lot of sense.

 

As far as my blends, you're correct in that generally as soon as I finish and taste them, they tend to be harsh, generally there is an overpowering "alcohol" (for lack of a better term) flavor that masks a lot of what was interesting from the original source whiskies. Generally as I drink more, and more oxygen is introduced into the bottle, the blend mellows out, gets better overall, and I can pick up more of what I liked from the original whiskies.

 

Your suggestions for continued experiments sound great. Doing my own blend from 4RSBPS bottles is something I've thought about doing and definitely want to try at some point. Usually when I get a bottle I drink it too quickly so I haven't managed to save any for blends, but you know, life goals!

 

Thanks again for the response. I always learn a lot from your posts.

@EarthQuake, yes, that's exactly what's going on after you mingle 2 or more barrels/bottles. And if you want to take your experiments a little further and you have a little $$ to spend on it, then you might want to look into buying two 3 to 5 gallon barrels, preferably used once/ex-Bourbon, so that you don't get a lot of tannins and other extractives too quickly. Buy a case of high proof rum like Wray & Nephew overproof, which sits at a healthy 63% abv. I recommend using the rum, instead of bourbon, since it is at high strength, it hasn't had any previous maturation, and it is much more economical. At any rate, in one barrel, enter the rum into the barrel at 63%, and into the other barrel, reduce the rum with water so that it sits around 53% abv. You can check the barrels throughout the year and see how the effects of entry proof affect the rate of color extraction, tannin intake, vanillin extraction, wood sugars, lactones, how it affects the mouth feel, etc. I guarantee you that you'll see a big difference between the higher entry proof barrel, which will get more of the alcohol soluble notes, and the lower entry proof barrel, which will initially have a slower color extraction, etc., but will end up with more water soluble notes. You might also begin to see differences in the rum depending upon what time of year you make the sample pulls, so that summer will be different from winter, spring, etc., but that will depend upon the maturation conditions in your house to some degree. 

 

I started this experiment 4 years ago in my basement to use as a teaching tool for the classes I teach for distillers. It is absolutely amazing and very cool to see the results over time. 

 

Another fun experiment with barrels is to do the same thing described as above, but this time keep both barrels at the same high 63% abv entry proof. Store one barrel in a very dry, hot area, and the other in a damp, cool area. Take samples throughout the year, and you'll be able to learn something about how humidity and heat affect the contents of the barrel. 

 

At any rate, I didn't mean to hijack this thread on a changed topic, except to wrap up that there are so many cool experiments you can do at home which will give you a whole new level of appreciation and understanding of bourbon and its maturation. And what could be more fun, right? ;-)

[WhiskeyBlender]

2 hours ago, birdie said:

Just got to try some Cigar Blend batch #7, it is really good, I found it very fruit forward, probably from the barrel finish employed, rich and tasty, similar in a way to HWMD.

Yes, the Armagnac cask really does a lot to push it fruit forward. I'm thrilled to hear you like batch #7. Cheers! N. 

[birdie]

Just wish there was more available in CO 

[WhiskeyBlender]

33 minutes ago, birdie said:

Just wish there was more available in CO 

Birdie, we recently went from 2 to 3 Armagnac barrels of it at a time, and I just ordered 7 more Armagnac barrels from France. Each cask holds roughly 500 to 530 bottles of 750's, so hopefully it will be much easier to find it in CO later this year. 

 

Cheers!

Nancy

Edited January 9, 2018 by WhiskeyBlender

[birdie]

That would be great as its a beautifully made bourbon..........

[WhiskeyBlender]

10 minutes ago, birdie said:

That would be great as its a beautifully made bourbon..........

Many thanks Birdie! Last month, when I made the most recent blend that is currently sitting in the Armagnac barrels, the 10 and 11 year old components had been racked higher up in the rick house, so they came out tasting to me more like 12 to 15 year old barrels. I also add some 19 year old bourbon, but can't do too much of it because it really dries out the blend. At any rate, I think for the upcoming spring release of batches #8, 9, and 10 will have a little more depth than previous batches, but we'll see. 

[Clifford]

On 1/8/2018 at 8:30 PM, WhiskeyBlender said:

Many thanks Birdie! Last month, when I made the most recent blend that is currently sitting in the Armagnac barrels, the 10 and 11 year old components had been racked higher up in the rick house, so they came out tasting to me more like 12 to 15 year old barrels. I also add some 19 year old bourbon, but can't do too much of it because it really dries out the blend. At any rate, I think for the upcoming spring release of batches #8, 9, and 10 will have a little more depth than previous batches, but we'll see. 

Great posts N! I have Cigar Blend #3, #6 and #7.  I know #3 won a Double Gold last year at SFWSC, and I also believe that you prefer the #6 and #7. Care to comment?  Also Are you saying the #8,9, and 10 are superior to #6 or #7?.  Finally, I have recently seen three different Potomac W&S store picks of J Magnus Barrel Strength Sherry Cask , some 119.92 proof and at less that 120 bottles- Your blends? 

[WhiskeyBlender]

2 hours ago, Clifford said:

Great posts N! I have Cigar Blend #3, #6 and #7.  I know #3 won a Double Gold last year at SFWSC, and I also believe that you prefer the #6 and #7. Care to comment?  Also Are you saying the #8,9, and 10 are superior to #6 or #7?.  Finally, I have recently seen three different Potomac W&S store picks of J Magnus Barrel Strength Sherry Cask , some 119.92 proof and at less that 120 bottles- Your blends? 

Clifford, I'm pretty sure that either batch #1 or 2 was submitted and won Double Gold at SFWSC (I don't remember which one), since #3 was for a private label and the profile is a bit different from all the others. Because of that, #3 would not have been submitted to competitions.

 

Also, I'm not sure that batches #8, 9, and 10 will necessarily be "superior" to #6 & 7, just a bit different. We put the coupe mere into the Armagnac barrels on December 21st, and when I was back in D.C. a week and a half ago, it was amazing to see how all 3 barrels had already developed their distinct "personalities." Keep in mind that all three casks are filled from the same "coupe mere," or mother blend, so any changes that occur come completely from how they develop in the Armagnac casks. Cask #1 is the most balanced, and is heading in the direction of batch #6, which along with batch #2, is my personal favorite. Cask #2 has some nice barrel spice and packs a punch, but I've been making a few coupe adjustments to insure that it is still well-balanced and not too dry, while keeping its unique barrel character. Cask #3 has a ton of caramelized wood sugars on the nose, but the palate offers both wood sugars and barrel spice. It will need slight adjustments to make sure the spice isn't too overwhelming and can still handle a cigar or pipe. I can give more details as these barrels continue to progress. 

 

The Potomac W&S cask-finished store picks would have been made by my right hand man, Head Blender Matt Witzig. I have to admit that haven't tasted them, as I usually don't work on the private selections. Did you buy a bottle, and if so, how did they turn out? 

 

Cheers,
N.

 

 

[Tony Santana]

Nancy, I really enjoy all your explanations and insights. Thanks for sharing.  Any comment on the Magnus Special Release Batch 1? I think I can get my hands on a bottle. 

[WhiskeyBlender]

On 4/19/2018 at 2:13 PM, Tony Santana said:

Nancy, I really enjoy all your explanations and insights. Thanks for sharing.  Any comment on the Magnus Special Release Batch 1? I think I can get my hands on a bottle. 

Hi Tony, I haven't been on here in a few weeks and just now saw your question. So, the Magnus Murray Hill Club Special Release batch #1 is finished in Pineau des Charentes casks. For those not in the know, Pineau des Charentes is a type of fortified wine made in the Cognac region of France. It is made from grape juice, or partially fermented grape must, then it is fortified with Cognac eau de vie to about 16 to 21% ABV and then aged. Since I originally come from a brandy production background (Germain-Robin) and have a passion for all things brandy-related, I wanted the first Special Release to be finished in these casks. 

 

Don't know how much you know about the MHC Blended Bourbon, but for that bourbon, I take about 20% to 29% of a 9 year old light whiskey (these days more at 20%), and then the majority of the blend has 11 and 12 year old 21% MGP bourbon, with a bit of 19 year old bourbon to give it some depth. I use this same "recipe" for the Special Release. 

 

This particular batch came from the 2nd coupe mere ("mother blend") of Murray Hill Club, which would have been originally blended back in November 2016, if I recall. I held some of it back in stainless until mid-June 2017, and then put it in the Pineau casks. It was harvested and bottled the beginning of this past December. 

 

I'm probably not the one to ask, since I'm admittedly quite biased about it, but I absolutely love the Special Release with the PdC finish. It is bottled at cask strength at 112 proof, which to be honest, I think that is a little high for it. It is still fairly smooth and round at that strength, but if I had done a very small reduction in the cask to say, 106 proof, or even 103 for a few months, I could have rounded it out even more and pulled out a few more water soluble wood sugars from the cask. I think that would have really made it that much better. Oh well, c'est la vie! 

 

With both the Cigar Blend and the MHC Special Release, since they're my pet projects, I like to make something that appeals to my own palate, which usually involves some sort of brandy influence such as Armagnac, etc. When the MHC-SF was first released last December, I was finding a lot more of the Cognac fruit type of aromas in it, with some "grape juice" such as apricot, orange citrus, some grilled nuts, and brown baking spices. Now, perhaps because it is spring and the weather is warming up, I'm still getting the nuttiness/"rancio," but also some dark dried fruits like fig and date, as well as dried apricot, prune, candied tangerine peel, cacao, and a lot more of the brown baking spices such as cinnamon, allspice, mace, nutmeg, etc. Thus, it seems a little "deeper" and more integrated, but definitely a little spicier. 

 

Back in January, I got another coupe mere together for MHC-SR  in order to do one more release of the Pineau des Charentes cask finish. This will be the last time I do this particular cask finish. I've made a few subtle changes in it. For one, I only use about 20% of the 9 y.o. light whiskey in the initial MHC blend, so this will give a little more of a pure "bourbon" note to both the regular MHC and the Special Release. Also, assuming that the sales & marketing department doesn't force my hand before I deem it ready, I'd like to let this stay in the finishing cask until December 1st before release. That is of course assuming the cask don't give too many unwanted tannins or other undesirable new extractives that have to oxidize out. 

 

At any rate, if you manage to get ahold of batch #1 of MHC-SR in Pineau des Charentes, please post your tasting notes! I'd sure love to have some feedback. Hope you enjoy it, and whatever other type of bourbons you enjoy! 

 

Cheers,

Nancy

 

 

[Tony Santana]

On 4/21/2018 at 4:09 PM, WhiskeyBlender said:

Hi Tony, I haven't been on here in a few weeks and just now saw your question. So, the Magnus Murray Hill Club Special Release batch #1 is finished in Pineau des Charentes casks. For those not in the know, Pineau des Charentes is a type of fortified wine made in the Cognac region of France. It is made from grape juice, or partially fermented grape must, then it is fortified with Cognac eau de vie to about 16 to 21% ABV and then aged. Since I originally come from a brandy production background (Germain-Robin) and have a passion for all things brandy-related, I wanted the first Special Release to be finished in these casks. 

 

Don't know how much you know about the MHC Blended Bourbon, but for that bourbon, I take about 20% to 29% of a 9 year old light whiskey (these days more at 20%), and then the majority of the blend has 11 and 12 year old 21% MGP bourbon, with a bit of 19 year old bourbon to give it some depth. I use this same "recipe" for the Special Release. 

 

This particular batch came from the 2nd coupe mere ("mother blend") of Murray Hill Club, which would have been originally blended back in November 2016, if I recall. I held some of it back in stainless until mid-June 2017, and then put it in the Pineau casks. It was harvested and bottled the beginning of this past December. 

 

I'm probably not the one to ask, since I'm admittedly quite biased about it, but I absolutely love the Special Release with the PdC finish. It is bottled at cask strength at 112 proof, which to be honest, I think that is a little high for it. It is still fairly smooth and round at that strength, but if I had done a very small reduction in the cask to say, 106 proof, or even 103 for a few months, I could have rounded it out even more and pulled out a few more water soluble wood sugars from the cask. I think that would have really made it that much better. Oh well, c'est la vie! 

 

With both the Cigar Blend and the MHC Special Release, since they're my pet projects, I like to make something that appeals to my own palate, which usually involves some sort of brandy influence such as Armagnac, etc. When the MHC-SF was first released last December, I was finding a lot more of the Cognac fruit type of aromas in it, with some "grape juice" such as apricot, orange citrus, some grilled nuts, and brown baking spices. Now, perhaps because it is spring and the weather is warming up, I'm still getting the nuttiness/"rancio," but also some dark dried fruits like fig and date, as well as dried apricot, prune, candied tangerine peel, cacao, and a lot more of the brown baking spices such as cinnamon, allspice, mace, nutmeg, etc. Thus, it seems a little "deeper" and more integrated, but definitely a little spicier. 

 

Back in January, I got another coupe mere together for MHC-SR  in order to do one more release of the Pineau des Charentes cask finish. This will be the last time I do this particular cask finish. I've made a few subtle changes in it. For one, I only use about 20% of the 9 y.o. light whiskey in the initial MHC blend, so this will give a little more of a pure "bourbon" note to both the regular MHC and the Special Release. Also, assuming that the sales & marketing department doesn't force my hand before I deem it ready, I'd like to let this stay in the finishing cask until December 1st before release. That is of course assuming the cask don't give too many unwanted tannins or other undesirable new extractives that have to oxidize out. 

 

At any rate, if you manage to get ahold of batch #1 of MHC-SR in Pineau des Charentes, please post your tasting notes! I'd sure love to have some feedback. Hope you enjoy it, and whatever other type of bourbons you enjoy! 

 

Cheers,

Nancy

 

 

Thanks for the info.  Picked up a bottle today, haven't cracked it open yet, but very much looking forward to it.