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PVW Drinking vs Hoardinng Question


Gorzo
This topic has been inactive for at least 365 days, and is now closed. Please feel free to start a new thread on the subject! 

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44 minutes ago, DCFan said:

Preach on brother! Hoarding is what's driving the current bourbon craze. I realize that it makes you feel good to be able to come on this forum and others and be able to post pics of your bunker and talk about clearing the shelf of some LE's but at some point we have to control ourselves if we want to get the mania under control. We are the solution and it isn't waiting for the distilleries to increase production.

How does hoarding vs drinking really affect price? If a bottle is consumed it's gone off the market. If it's sits filled on a home bar shelf it's off the market. Personally thinks it's all about supply from distilleries. 

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4 hours ago, Gorzo said:

No, but was  thinking about getting one. Should I  put "showed strong work ethic hunting bourbon over last six months" on my resume? 

Haha, nice.

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26 minutes ago, Gorzo said:

Not a chance

Can't back in, now.  He got ya.

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28 minutes ago, smokinjoe said:

Can't back in, now.  He got ya.

In the words of our president "believe me"

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6 minutes ago, Gorzo said:

In the words of our president "believe me"

Perhaps, you should have gone another way with that...:lol:   

 

 

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15 hours ago, Tony Santana said:

I have every one of the BTAC and VW line, and every one of them is open except for the PVW23, which I just got this year.  But they get consumed slowly. Am I tempted to flip the 23, or  some of my backup bottles?  Yeah.  But so far I haven't done so.  I've got them all at or near MSRP, so to me it's not a $1000 bottle, it's only a potential windfall - and I'd feel like I betrayed my principles if I flipped it.  I dunno, maybe if my circumstances changed.  For now, I'd rather drink tasty whiskey than have the money.

Well said, and this is how I feel.  I actually took it a little further than you though.  I had several PVW 20s that fell into my lap after being on the wait list for years.  The temptation to see if the market was real was too much and I sold one about a year ago...I had to take a shower afterwards as it made me feel kinda dirty.  What I can say is the market is definitely real.  I went the "safe" route and went through a broker that has the proper liquor license, insured the package and all that, and my rate of return was about 500%.  So if one were to go to the secondary market just think what kind of money could be made.  

 

So all that to say that my response to the initial question of how much of this stuff gets opened is that I think several years ago most of it was opened.  However, in todays market its like owning stock to some people.  I'm guessing the bottles getting opened nowadays are either at restaurants, rich people's houses or Straight Bourbon member's houses.  All the rest are likely floating around being bought and sold.

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7 hours ago, Canarse said:

If the co-workers husband ever comes over for a drink I would have a bottle of Ten High just to serve to him.

That's another bone of contention: He only drinks beer.    But will never be invited back.  Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.  

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7 hours ago, Canarse said:

If the co-workers husband ever comes over for a drink I would have a bottle of Ten High just to serve to him.

Unless it's one of the older bottles when it was a 10 yr old straight bourbon instead of the blend it is these days. It was a pretty decent whiskey then :) 

 

Ten High Ten 001.JPG

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10 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

Perhaps, you should have gone another way with that...:lol:   

 

 

"Fake news?"  :lol:

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12 hours ago, Canarse said:

If the co-workers husband ever comes over for a drink I would have a bottle of Ten High just to serve to him.

You have never had Ten High until you have had it at a hotel bar from a soda style dispenser.

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I personally open every bottle of whiskey I purchase.  I do sometimes delay opening either for a special occasion or until we have company to share it with.

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On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 7:09 PM, Gorzo said:

I am not sure the liqour store would care if it is enjoyed or flipped . You would like to think so, but don't think that is much of a factor. A bourbon drinker and flipper's money has the same affect on the bottom line. This is assuming all things are equal as far as money spent through the year. at the store.  Could be way off base though because there is always the human element  involved (relationships) Don't rember what thread it was in, but remember someone telling a story about cars following a delivery truck around because they got the heads up from the distributor. The shop owner left it all in back and told them they didn't get any. Thinking I would probably. do the same with these types of items. It would distribute solely on a rewards program type program and nix the blind lottery, the people that follow the trucks and people who just  pop in and ask if they  just got their allocation of Pappy or BTAC.....That being said I am guilty of doing everything except following a truck and if I had that info probably would join that club as well.  I wouldn't feel good about it though. HA

Not the case in my store. It is a small operation and my friend who owns it is a whiskey enthusiast himself so that no doubt helps. But he makes an effort to keep track of flippers and tries hard not to sell to them. Most of the regular customers (like me!!!! :D) tend to get first crack at the LE stuff anyway but what is left he tries to make sure goes to a good home!

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Not the case in my store. It is a small operation and my friend who owns it is a whiskey enthusiast himself so that no doubt helps. But he makes an effort to keep track of flippers and tries hard not to sell to them. Most of the regular customers (like me!!!! [emoji3]) tend to get first crack at the LE stuff anyway but what is left he tries to make sure goes to a good home!


Agreed, I've talked to owners who where quite upset when people bought up there limited W12 for under $40 and sold it on the secondary for $100+.
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1 hour ago, tanstaafl2 said:

Not the case in my store. It is a small operation and my friend who owns it is a whiskey enthusiast himself so that no doubt helps. But he makes an effort to keep track of flippers and tries hard not to sell to them. Most of the regular customers (like me!!!! :D) tend to get first crack at the LE stuff anyway but what is left he tries to make sure goes to a good home!

Like I said could be way off base. In my marketing area most of the LE stuff goes to the big chains. The smaller independent stores don't get much of an allocation of LE stuff and if they do it's generally marked up at secondary pricing. I don't blame them because sure they are getting their margins eroded by the big boys (Costco totally wine etc). So guess my opinion was based more towards my specific area. Glad to know there are parts of the country where it pays off to build those relationships. 

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1 hour ago, Gorzo said:

Like I said could be way off base. In my marketing area most of the LE stuff goes to the big chains. The smaller independent stores don't get much of an allocation of LE stuff and if they do it's generally marked up at secondary pricing. I don't blame them because sure they are getting their margins eroded by the big boys (Costco totally wine etc). So guess my opinion was based more towards my specific area. Glad to know there are parts of the country where it pays off to build those relationships. 

 

Whether the retail seller should care is a different issue, but I do think most of them do care.   IMO The smaller stores feel like they are doing you a favor and its akin to a slap in the face if they found out you resold.  I think the feeling would be similar to you bringing a nice bottle over to my house when I have a tasting and I do not open it and a week later you find out I sold it.  Yes, that is a more extreme example then flipping after buying at retail, but the feeling of being slighted would be in the same vein and I think you would be unlikely to score another high end bottle down the road.

 

As for the big chain stores.  I have been told from my Binny's manager that  around July corporate sent an email to all managers instructing them to not sell any allocated bottles to a particular customer that had been hitting up multiple Binny's for limited edition bottles.   Binny's tracks everything you buy and now follows the LEs pretty closely.  The same manager also told me last year a different manager was fired after being caught flipping the LE bottle he purchased from the store.  Finally, I know a security guard who told me he was canned this year for tipping friends off as to when the good stuff was arriving.   

 

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On 12/16/2017 at 5:50 PM, Vosgar said:

Unless it's one of the older bottles when it was a 10 yr old straight bourbon instead of the blend it is these days. It was a pretty decent whiskey then :) 

 

Ten High Ten 001.JPG

Not sure of where that bottle came from, but in the 80s the stuff we were buying by the handle was certainly not 10 years old. 

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1 hour ago, Bob_Loblaw said:

 

Whether the retail seller should care is a different issue, but I do think most of them do care.   IMO The smaller stores feel like they are doing you a favor and its akin to a slap in the face if they found out you resold.  I think the feeling would be similar to you bringing a nice bottle over to my house when I have a tasting and I do not open it and a week later you find out I sold it.  Yes, that is a more extreme example then flipping after buying at retail, but the feeling of being slighted would be in the same vein and I think you would be unlikely to score another high end bottle down the road.

 

As for the big chain stores.  I have been told from my Binny's manager that  around July corporate sent an email to all managers instructing them to not sell any allocated bottles to a particular customer that had been hitting up multiple Binny's for limited edition bottles.   Binny's tracks everything you buy and now follows the LEs pretty closely.  The same manager also told me last year a different manager was fired after being caught flipping the LE bottle he purchased from the store.  Finally, I know a security guard who told me he was canned this year for tipping friends off as to when the good stuff was arriving.   

 

Interesting info about Binny's. I wonder if or how many distributor reps have suffered the same fate.  

 

I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of your example. But you left out one big factor.  I would of received payment for that bottle and made a profit. Just because the liquor store owner isn't selling LEs at secondary pricing doesn't mean they aren't making a profit, but get what your saying. 

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I had a Pappy 23 and 20 opened.  I also opened a 15 (2009) and a 2017 12 year for my christmas party.  Add a FR LE 2017 and a Blantons gold and its a real party.  Favorites were VW 12 and Blantons.   I was surprised that the Pappy 15 wasn't the favorite.  

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2 hours ago, Gorzo said:

I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of your example. But you left out one big factor.  I would of received payment for that bottle and made a profit. Just because the liquor store owner isn't selling LEs at secondary pricing doesn't mean they aren't making a profit, but get what your saying. 

Not that much profit though. For the small allocation they get, they spend an undue amount of time fielding calls about it, talking to customers in store about it, getting cursed at by the unhappy customers who miss out, and seeing the disappointment on the face of some of their loyal customers who miss out because no matter how hard they try, there are more loyal customers than there are bottles to go around.

This is why it chaps their hide when they find out that someone profited on the secondary market.

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7 hours ago, flahute said:

Not that much profit though. For the small allocation they get, they spend an undue amount of time fielding calls about it, talking to customers in store about it, getting cursed at by the unhappy customers who miss out, and seeing the disappointment on the face of some of their loyal customers who miss out because no matter how hard they try, there are more loyal customers than there are bottles to go around.

This is why it chaps their hide when they find out that someone profited on the secondary market.

How does the liquor store owner find out? Are they checking web sites like. Bottle Spot and trying to figure out someone's handle?  Are customers coming in and saying I just bought a bottle from a guy that bought it at your store?  Not saying it doesn't happen, but would seem to be well outside the norm. I can't buy into the fact that store owners are like D.C. FAN and care what others do with their bourbon after purchase.  I agree that LE stuff for a store owner is probably more trouble than it's worth, but I don't agree with the chapped ass part of your comment or maybe it's I don't agree that they should get the chapped ass. Your totally right about there being more loyal customers than bottles, but it's most likely that the loyal customers are being passed over for other loyal customers.  if the loyal customer makes a little on the bottle why would a shop owner care? Most likely that money is coming back in the store if the person they sold to is a loyal customer.  If they sell off their small allocation to someone other than a loyal customer then that's their fault.  Quit holding open to the public lotteries or putting stuff on the shelf. I don't have an ideological views towards bourbon. I think most store owners would lean towards that camp and not care what people do with their purchases. I know an unpopular opinion on this forum. 

 

I very much respect your opinion, but in the words of Si Robertson "We will disagree to disagree" 

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58 minutes ago, Gorzo said:

How does the liquor store owner find out? Are they checking web sites like. Bottle Spot and trying to figure out someone's handle?  Are customers coming in and saying I just bought a bottle from a guy that bought it at your store?  Not saying it doesn't happen, but would seem to be well outside the norm. I can't buy into the fact that store owners are like D.C. FAN and care what others do with their bourbon after purchase.  I agree that LE stuff for a store owner is probably more trouble than it's worth, but I don't agree with the chapped ass part of your comment or maybe it's I don't agree that they should get the chapped ass. Your totally right about there being more loyal customers than bottles, but it's most likely that the loyal customers are being passed over for other loyal customers.  if the loyal customer makes a little on the bottle why would a shop owner care? Most likely that money is coming back in the store if the person they sold to is a loyal customer.  If they sell off their small allocation to someone other than a loyal customer then that's their fault.  Quit holding open to the public lotteries or putting stuff on the shelf. I don't have an ideological views towards bourbon. I think most store owners would lean towards that camp and not care what people do with their purchases. I know an unpopular opinion on this forum. 

 

I very much respect your opinion, but in the words of Si Robertson "We will disagree to disagree" 

My store owner finds out about it because if I know about it I tell him (he is also a friend so that helps). As do other regular customers and even local brand and distributor reps. And because he is interested in knowing. Certainly there are other owners who don't care so much.

 

The whiskey nerd enthusiast community is relatively small, even in a city the size of Atlanta, and tends to overlap with the also relatively small flipper world. It rarely takes long to identify who the flippers are. :ph34r:

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On 12/16/2017 at 5:50 PM, Vosgar said:

Unless it's one of the older bottles when it was a 10 yr old straight bourbon instead of the blend it is these days. It was a pretty decent whiskey then :) 

 

Ten High Ten 001.JPG

This was excellent whiskey. I still have several bottles and the tins it was originally sold in.

 

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51 minutes ago, tanstaafl2 said:

My store owner finds out about it because if I know about it I tell him (he is also a friend so that helps). As do other regular customers and even local brand and distributor reps. And because he is interested in knowing. Certainly there are other owners who don't care so much.

 

The whiskey nerd enthusiast community is relatively small, even in a city the size of Atlanta, and tends to overlap with the also relatively small flipper world. It rarely takes long to identify who the flippers are. :ph34r:

Are those the "loyal customers" or just people looking to make a profit? I personally would have no problem flipping a bottle (not for a profit), but to get something I wanted. For example if I won a THH at a lottery (not a fan of Ryes) and could sell that and put the money towards a Stagg that I missed out on I would do it in a second and not feel guilty about it. 

 

Admittedly I could be arguing the wrong side of the issue, guess playing devil's advocate more than anything else. 

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