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PVW Drinking vs Hoardinng Question


Gorzo
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I personally was lucky in 2009 to buy a stash of Pappy 15 and 20 from a store that had discounted it 30%. (Nobody knew what it was and it wasn't selling so I got the 15 for $42 and the 20 for $70) I haven't bought any since and open a bottle a year at Christmas. I will always let people try it. I buy whiskey to enjoy and never sell any.

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How does the liquor store owner find out? Are they checking web sites like. Bottle Spot and trying to figure out someone's handle?  Are customers coming in and saying I just bought a bottle from a guy that bought it at your store?  Not saying it doesn't happen, but would seem to be well outside the norm. I can't buy into the fact that store owners are like D.C. FAN and care what others do with their bourbon after purchase.  I agree that LE stuff for a store owner is probably more trouble than it's worth, but I don't agree with the chapped ass part of your comment or maybe it's I don't agree that they should get the chapped ass. Your totally right about there being more loyal customers than bottles, but it's most likely that the loyal customers are being passed over for other loyal customers.  if the loyal customer makes a little on the bottle why would a shop owner care? Most likely that money is coming back in the store if the person they sold to is a loyal customer.  If they sell off their small allocation to someone other than a loyal customer then that's their fault.  Quit holding open to the public lotteries or putting stuff on the shelf. I don't have an ideological views towards bourbon. I think most store owners would lean towards that camp and not care what people do with their purchases. I know an unpopular opinion on this forum. 
 
I very much respect your opinion, but in the words of Si Robertson "We will disagree to disagree" 

I think you are right and wrong about LS owners. There are certainly some that don't give a rat's ass what happens after the sale, but those aren't usually the ones that hold stuff for loyal customers and sell it at retail. Many of these stores just put it on the shelf and sell it at close to secondary market price or they sell it all to one or more individuals at secondary pricing. I don't understand these owners since it alienates potential loyal customers and probably costs them more business than the extra profit that they make on these bottles.

There are stores that play the middle ground and premium price stuff a bit to loyal customers, so they make a bit extra, but don't allow any potential loyal customer flippers to make as much on the flip. You are correct that they don't care too much about what happens after the sale, but if they know someone is flipping, they might not get the most desirable stuff either.

Then there really are the stores that do want to reward their loyal customers and keep the good stuff out of the hands of flippers as much as possibly. They actually get to know their customers over time, and it sometimes takes a few years to finally get a sought after bottle from them at retail as they get to know you. I shop at several stores like this, and trust me, if they ever thought I was a flipper, I'd never see another limited edition or highly allocated bottle.


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53 minutes ago, lcpfratn said:


I think you are right and wrong about LS owners. There are certainly some that don't give a rat's ass what happens after the sale, but those aren't usually the ones that hold stuff for loyal customers and sell it at retail. Many of these stores just put it on the shelf and sell it at close to secondary market price or they sell it all to one or more individuals at secondary pricing. I don't understand these owners since it alienates potential loyal customers and probably costs them more business than the extra profit that they make on these bottles.

There are stores that play the middle ground and premium price stuff a bit to loyal customers, so they make a bit extra, but don't allow any potential loyal customer flippers to make as much on the flip. You are correct that they don't care too much about what happens after the sale, but if they know someone is flipping, they might not get the most desirable stuff either.

Then there really are the stores that do want to reward their loyal customers and keep the good stuff out of the hands of flippers as much as possibly. They actually get to know their customers over time, and it sometimes takes a few years to finally get a sought after bottle from them at retail as they get to know you. I shop at several stores like this, and trust me, if they ever thought I was a flipper, I'd never see another limited edition or highly allocated bottle.


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I see what your saying, but is a flipper really going to invest that time and loyalty to score a bottle every couple of years?  That's playing a pretty long game to get a bottle to flip. I agree if an owner sells a bottle to someone they see every November and somehow figures out it was flipped that may be irritating, but why was the bottle given to that type of customer? Like I said before if it is flipped by a loyal customer, then most likely some of that money finds it way back in the store. Loyalty is a two way street,  The customer is loyal with their purchases. The shop owners job is to keep your loyalty. If he throws you a bone to keep that loyalty, then I don't get why they care what you do with that bottle. I am not talking bout the ambulance chasers that go from store to store following the trucks trying to profit. 

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Some are better at, for lack of a better word, hiding their intentions. The things I share are those who I have personal knowledge of flipping routinely for profit with little or no interest in the whiskey itself. Most of those are likely not part of our current "loyal customer" group anyway at this point, which because it is a small store is relatively small anyway. The store only gets a small allocation compared to the bigger players in our market and often the store has to fight even for that. They can't make a big commitment to the latest flavored vodka a distributor might be pushing to get a couple of bottles of something when they know it will take forever to sell (not to mention storage space is limited and regular turnover is an absolute must to survive). It really is a pain for the owner and I believe the main reason he puts up with it is because he is a whiskey enthusiast himself. Other owners probably wouldn't be as proactive.

 

Now of course this is all only my opinion as I don't want to speak directly for the owner.  

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LS acquisition of LE can come with strings attached .Tied products, allocations based on prior year sales of specific items that LS may not always want / need. When considering what a liquor store does with their LE stuff just need to realize that they likely have more ‘invested’ in it than just wholesale.  

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6 hours ago, Enoch said:

I personally was lucky in 2009 to buy a stash of Pappy 15 and 20 from a store that had discounted it 30%. (Nobody knew what it was and it wasn't selling so I got the 15 for $42 and the 20 for $70) I haven't bought any since and open a bottle a year at Christmas. I will always let people try it. I buy whiskey to enjoy and never sell any.

I agree...if you were lucky enough to buy a stash at that price I to would open them, its easier to do when you have another sitting there, not so easy when its your only one and took you three years to get lucky.

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5 hours ago, Gorzo said:

I see what your saying, but is a flipper really going to invest that time and loyalty to score a bottle every couple of years?  That's playing a pretty long game to get a bottle to flip. I agree if an owner sells a bottle to someone they see every November and somehow figures out it was flipped that may be irritating, but why was the bottle given to that type of customer? Like I said before if it is flipped by a loyal customer, then most likely some of that money finds it way back in the store. Loyalty is a two way street,  The customer is loyal with their purchases. The shop owners job is to keep your loyalty. If he throws you a bone to keep that loyalty, then I don't get why they care what you do with that bottle. I am not talking bout the ambulance chasers that go from store to store following the trucks trying to profit. 

Say you own a small liquor store.  Customers A and B both come in 2-3 times a month and buy a bottle of bourbon or a sixer of beer.  Equally friendly, interested in bourbon, and spend roughly the same amount.  Come PVW time you receive two bottles of PVW 20 and sell one to each at MSRP of $170ish.  Customer A thanks your profusely and says he can't wait to open at Christmas with his family.  Customer B also thanks you and then mentions that he is so lucky to get this bottle since he already has a buyer lined up at $1,500 and can cover the annual cost of his purchases with the profit.  Over the course of the next year both A and B continue to visit regularly and make purchases, again they spend roughly the same amount.  In January, A shows you some pictures from the holidays and says he was "the man of the hour" when he busted out the bottle.  This year you only receive one bottle and its a PVW 23.  Who would you sell the bottle too? The regular customer who you know will be excited to open and share or the one who is hoping to freeroll his liquor purchases for the next year?  Again, I understand your point about from a black and white numbers perspective it should not matter, but I think the reality is that almost every person would sell to A and feel great about making that guys year.  

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1 hour ago, Bob_Loblaw said:

Say you own a small liquor store.  Customers A and B both come in 2-3 times a month and buy a bottle of bourbon or a sixer of beer.  Equally friendly, interested in bourbon, and spend roughly the same amount.  Come PVW time you receive two bottles of PVW 20 and sell one to each at MSRP of $170ish.  Customer A thanks your profusely and says he can't wait to open at Christmas with his family.  Customer B also thanks you and then mentions that he is so lucky to get this bottle since he already has a buyer lined up at $1,500 and can cover the annual cost of his purchases with the profit.  Over the course of the next year both A and B continue to visit regularly and make purchases, again they spend roughly the same amount.  In January, A shows you some pictures from the holidays and says he was "the man of the hour" when he busted out the bottle.  This year you only receive one bottle and its a PVW 23.  Who would you sell the bottle too? The regular customer who you know will be excited to open and share or the one who is hoping to freeroll his liquor purchases for the next year?  Again, I understand your point about from a black and white numbers perspective it should not matter, but I think the reality is that almost every person would sell to A and feel great about making that guys year.  

In your example I totally agree that if everything is relatively equal Buyer A gets the bottle. That's pretty obvious. But that's not really the point I am arguing. 

 

To understand my point of view use this example. Now your the liquor store owner.  If all things were relatively equal and you got two bottles the next year instead of one,  would you have an issue giving that other bottle to the guy that flipped the bottle from the original example? Or do you have the red ass because he flipped it? Remember he is still a loyal customer. I would still throw him a bone, that being said sure that is a minority opinion.  

 

Like I said in a prior post in the Saint Louis market 99% of the LE stuff is sent to places like Total Wine. Everything is lottery, tracking purchases or marked up at secondary market prices. I look at things black and white because that is the market I am in. 

 

Now as far as my family reunion plan, I am always looking for some long lost relatives if you wanna come join the party. Just let me know your T shirt size. 

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10 hours ago, Gorzo said:

How does the liquor store owner find out? Are they checking web sites like. Bottle Spot and trying to figure out someone's handle?  Are customers coming in and saying I just bought a bottle from a guy that bought it at your store?  Not saying it doesn't happen, but would seem to be well outside the norm. I can't buy into the fact that store owners are like D.C. FAN and care what others do with their bourbon after purchase.  I agree that LE stuff for a store owner is probably more trouble than it's worth, but I don't agree with the chapped ass part of your comment or maybe it's I don't agree that they should get the chapped ass. Your totally right about there being more loyal customers than bottles, but it's most likely that the loyal customers are being passed over for other loyal customers.  if the loyal customer makes a little on the bottle why would a shop owner care? Most likely that money is coming back in the store if the person they sold to is a loyal customer.  If they sell off their small allocation to someone other than a loyal customer then that's their fault.  Quit holding open to the public lotteries or putting stuff on the shelf. I don't have an ideological views towards bourbon. I think most store owners would lean towards that camp and not care what people do with their purchases. I know an unpopular opinion on this forum. 

 

I very much respect your opinion, but in the words of Si Robertson "We will disagree to disagree" 

You sort of combined multiple scenarios at the end there while still holding on to the store owner being chapped response.

Others have already responded with some of what I was going to say.

 

I'd say that if the store owner is simply putting bottles on the shelf or holding a lottery than they've already decided that they don't care what the customer does with it because they aren't controlling who gets it. Plenty of stores do it this way. There are far less who put them out than there used to be because they've realized they can get more bodies in the store with a lottery, but those who do just put them out do so to get rid of the bottles and get it over with as quickly as possible.

 

The store owners who hold bottles back for their loyal customers do care however. At least the ones I know. They want to hook up their customers and make them happy because they know their customers truly enjoy the product. If they find out you are selling on the secondary market, they will reward someone else next year. If they found out everyone was selling on the secondary market, they'd just keep the allocation and sell for their own profit.

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33 minutes ago, Gorzo said:

To understand my point of view use this example. Now your the liquor store owner.  If all things were relatively equal and you got two bottles the next year instead of one,  would you have an issue giving that other bottle to the guy that flipped the bottle from the original example? Or do you have the red ass because he flipped it? Remember he is still a loyal customer. I would still throw him a bone, that being said sure that is a minority opinion.  

 

Related to what I just said above, the store owners I know would not sell again to the flipper because they have more loyal customers than bottles so they will move on to the next loyal guy in line waiting for his chance.

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It's a really mixed bag in my area. A few stores (three with the same owner) really don't care. They're in it to make money. They sell above suggested retail. To be honest, more closely to secondary market prices. Lotteries included, they're a freaking joke. A couple of stores are now at least trying. Over time they've become aware of what's going on. They've grown tired of the "once a year" customers. These stores have altered their lotteries to try and reflect that. Yet another store (or two?) has been trying something different and unique. They do a lottery/raffle with a twist. They run it as a charity event. They have an event with a tasting. You pay  x number of dollars to get in, then buy tickets at a dollar each to put in for the bottle or gift package of your choice. They sell the bottles pretty much at retail. All proceeds go to charity. Other than the sale of the bottles, the store doesn't make a dime. I went to one a couple of months or so ago. I had a good time even though I didn't win a thing. I forget the exact number, but I know that at least a few hundred dollars was raised, and every penny went to St. Jude.

 

Biba! Joe

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4 hours ago, birdie said:

I agree...if you were lucky enough to buy a stash at that price I to would open them, its easier to do when you have another sitting there, not so easy when its your only one and took you three years to get lucky.

Every time I get a bottle I haven't been able to get before I open it basically as soon as I have a chance. Life is too short don't want to get hit by a bus not having had a taste!

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1 hour ago, flahute said:

Related to what I just said above, the store owners I know would not sell again to the flipper because they have more loyal customers than bottles so they will move on to the next loyal guy in line waiting for his chance.

I understand that. My hypothetical question to him was based on the one he asked me. At this point we are just going around in circles, but have enjoyed the discussion. Just have a differing opinion. 

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15 hours ago, birdie said:

I agree...if you were lucky enough to buy a stash at that price I to would open them, its easier to do when you have another sitting there, not so easy when its your only one and took you three years to get lucky.

I agree with you. I usually try to buy at least 2 of special new releases if I can. ie. BTAC, etc. One to open and one to save for some special occasion. When I'm down to one PVW 15 and 20 I will probably not open them and have them placed in my coffin. I'm going to try to take it with me.

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