Barrels standing on end in "rickhouse"?????

[kemosabe]

Have you ever seen this before and can you guess where this pic was taken today?  I was surprised to find these barrels and more all stood on end throughout the warehouse.

[fishnbowljoe]

Beam.

 

Biba! Joe

[kemosabe]

Nope - not Beam

[HoustonNit]

Barton

[HoustonNit]

This seems to be standard practice in Ireland.

[PowderKeg]

Not Barton, Barton's palletized warehouse has a different roofline.  IIRC, storage capacity was @ 70,000 barrels - felt a little Indiana Jones-ish walking in.  Couple crappy cellphone pics from there from last week.

 

[Hop]

This is how they do it at Bowman in VA


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[Harry in WashDC]

23 minutes ago, Hop said:

This is how they do it at Bowman in VA


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Indeed.  Here's a link to the ASB website photo page showing that they are stocked four-high on end.  On more than one tour, the guide on the tour pointed to a particular spot in this large "room" and said to me when I was the only tour person and on an other time with an other guide about five of us that the spot indicated is the sweet spot in the "room".  I say "room" because it is a large room on the east side of the distillery building which, many years ago and long before ASB moved in during the late 1970s, was a factory producing car and truck batteries IIRC but do not quote me.

http://www.asmithbowman.com/photo_gallery.aspx 

[fishnbowljoe]

I know that Beam has at least one warehouse where they palletize barrels and store them on end. 

 

Biba! Joe

[HoustonNit]

Not Barton, Barton's palletized warehouse has a different roofline.  IIRC, storage capacity was @ 70,000 barrels - felt a little Indiana Jones-ish walking in.  Couple crappy cellphone pics from there from last week.
 

Man that’s quite the endorsement for touring Barton.

Not a fan of Barton but what’s one to do after doing the high end samples at HH and a tour of the quaint Willett Distillery.

[kemosabe]

The pic is from the Breckenridge Distillery, and that's about the entire amount of bourbon they have on site.  I asked the tour guide what % of their own bourbon is in their bottles and he would not say.  He did say that their bourbon is bottled @ 3-4 years in age.  After tasting their bourbon and later having dinner there last night - I found the food to be better than their bourbon. 

[smokinjoe]

14 hours ago, PowderKeg said:

Not Barton, Barton's palletized warehouse has a different roofline.  IIRC, storage capacity was @ 70,000 barrels - felt a little Indiana Jones-ish walking in.  Couple crappy cellphone pics from there from last week.

 

Every time I see a picture of these large palletized barrel warehouses I think of Jinga.  Just one little wrong move on a small piece of wood and...KAPOOOEY!!!!!

But, like where a standard rickhouse is engineered in such a way where the framework and barrels work in unison to create its overall strength, I'm sure some type of hocus-pocus engineering thing applies here, as well.  It just looks spookier. I'll tell ya, I'd be picking up my pace and scootin' through a little more briskly if I was heading down that long aisle...    

[Harry in WashDC]

2 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

Every time I see a picture of these large palletized barrel warehouses I think of Jinga.  Just one little wrong move on a small piece of wood and...KAPOOOEY!!!!!

But, like where a standard rickhouse is engineered in such a way where the framework and barrels work in unison to create its overall strength, I'm sure some type of hocus-pocus engineering thing applies here, as well.  It just looks spookier. I'll tell ya, I'd be picking up my pace and scootin' through a little more briskly if I was heading down that long aisle...    

I note that the pallets are three barrel-diameters wide and, perhaps, three deep, thus allowing nine barrels to sit on each pallet.  That's a LOT of weight on the bottom nine if the stacks are five high.  AND, it doesn't look like the pallets are offset which would create horizontal distribution of weight as well as vertical.  But, I guess "they" know what "they" are doing although I do wonder if leakage on the bottom layer (due to squashing) is greater than leakage at the top.  I also guess they've never had a corner barrel fail as that might cause the entire tower to tilt and fall.  I'd guess it would just take once before somebody said, "We aren't doing THAT again."  I would like to be there to see "them" lift down some top barrels.  Do they use a forklift and do it barrel by barrel or by pallet?  If by pallet, do they lash the barrels to the forklift before lifting?  What's the counterweight on the "rear" of the forklift weigh?  How often do they restack - like, when new barrels are filled, do they put them on the bnottom and then move older stuff ontothem, or is each column essentially the same age?  Guess it's time for another tour of A Smith Bowman.

[flahute]

5 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

I note that the pallets are three barrel-diameters wide and, perhaps, three deep, thus allowing nine barrels to sit on each pallet.  That's a LOT of weight on the bottom nine if the stacks are five high.  AND, it doesn't look like the pallets are offset which would create horizontal distribution of weight as well as vertical.  But, I guess "they" know what "they" are doing although I do wonder if leakage on the bottom layer (due to squashing) is greater than leakage at the top.  I also guess they've never had a corner barrel fail as that might cause the entire tower to tilt and fall.  I'd guess it would just take once before somebody said, "We aren't doing THAT again."  I would like to be there to see "them" lift down some top barrels.  Do they use a forklift and do it barrel by barrel or by pallet?  If by pallet, do they lash the barrels to the forklift before lifting?  What's the counterweight on the "rear" of the forklift weigh?  How often do they restack - like, when new barrels are filled, do they put them on the bnottom and then move older stuff ontothem, or is each column essentially the same age?  Guess it's time for another tour of A Smith Bowman.

I see 2 x 3 pallets stacked six high. This means every barrel on the bottom is carrying the weight of 5 barrels above. A barrel standing on end is very sound structurally. It all comes down to the steel hoops I believe. The curve in the staves when loaded want to curve more as they compress from the weight. The hoops resist that and luckily for us steel is VERY good in tension. I have to believe someone had an engineer somewhere calculate the tensile strength of those hoops for the given load on them. If so, I'm not very nervous about this.

[mewanning]

Have you ever seen this before and can you guess where this pic was taken today?  I was surprised to find these barrels and more all stood on end throughout the warehouse.

Looks exactly like pictures I have seen of wine barrels stored in a man-made cave. They are moved in with fork-lifts (thus the pallets between barrels) and never move until they are removed for bottling. They are not sampled during storage, so the bung plug is never pulled & the cave is constant temp. By storing this way, you get more barrels in the cave.

Bourbon is sampled during storage. Store them this way and when you pull the plug to sample, 1/2 your Bourbon would flow out. And you are pulling individual barrels from all over the rack house. The barrels is shaped to make it easy for a human to move a single barrel - from top, middle or bottom to blend in a batch or rotate if you are Maker's Mark.

The only way I could see this working for any whiskey is a very small producer who did not have access to a rack house and was using heat and air to simulate weather changes indoors.

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[WhiskeyBlender]

On 12/31/2017 at 10:48 PM, mewanning said:

Looks exactly like pictures I have seen of wine barrels stored in a man-made cave. They are moved in with fork-lifts (thus the pallets between barrels) and never move until they are removed for bottling. They are not sampled during storage, so the bung plug is never pulled & the cave is constant temp. By storing this way, you get more barrels in the cave.

Bourbon is sampled during storage. Store them this way and when you pull the plug to sample, 1/2 your Bourbon would flow out. And you are pulling individual barrels from all over the rack house. The barrels is shaped to make it easy for a human to move a single barrel - from top, middle or bottom to blend in a batch or rotate if you are Maker's Mark.

The only way I could see this working for any whiskey is a very small producer who did not have access to a rack house and was using heat and air to simulate weather changes indoors.

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Just to expound upon this topic further, I know that there is a lot of back and forth as to whether palletized warehousing makes a difference in the final product quality-wise, but in my experience, I'm NOT a fan of this type of storage. First of all, the contact that the whiskey has with the wood is very different that what is found in normal racking, given that the barrel is now upright. Also, as you can see from the photos, the barrels pallets are packed tightly together, creating less airflow around the barrels so that ethanol/water pockets develop. This means less evaporation, but in hot conditions, it can also mean that mustiness can develop, especially high up. And, of course, the barrels are hard to work with, since you have to move them around with a forklift before you can do so. 

 

@mewanning, just a quick note: usually when taking barrel samples, whether palletized or racked, the bungs are never removed. Instead, a small hole is drilled into the barrel, the sample is taken, and then the hole is plugged back up with a small piece of wood. 

[Harry in WashDC]

1 hour ago, WhiskeyBlender said:

 . . .

 Also, as you can see from the photos, the barrels pallets are packed tightly together, creating less airflow around the barrels so that ethanol/water pockets develop. This means less evaporation, but in hot conditions, it can also mean that mustiness can develop, especially high up. And, of course, the barrels are hard to work with, since you have to move them around with a forklift before you can do so. 

 . . .

A. Smith Bowman uses the stacked pallet approach in the huge room just off the still room.  Tour guides will point to one part of the room, on an inner wall BTW, as the sweet spot in the room.  The huge room is not insulated, and the temps are not otherwise controlled.  I guess it's time for another tour, now that this thread has raised all these issues.  I can drive the guy nuts yet again with my questions.

[WhiskeyBlender]

8 minutes ago, Harry in WashDC said:

A. Smith Bowman uses the stacked pallet approach in the huge room just off the still room.  Tour guides will point to one part of the room, on an inner wall BTW, as the sweet spot in the room.  The huge room is not insulated, and the temps are not otherwise controlled.  I guess it's time for another tour, now that this thread has raised all these issues.  I can drive the guy nuts yet again with my questions.

When do you think you'll pay them another visit? I'd love to hear about what additional info you collect from them. 

[Harry in WashDC]

2 hours ago, WhiskeyBlender said:

When do you think you'll pay them another visit? I'd love to hear about what additional info you collect from them. 

This month is not out of the question - toward the end.

[marshbound]

On 1/7/2018 at 3:08 PM, Harry in WashDC said:

A. Smith Bowman uses the stacked pallet approach in the huge room just off the still room.  Tour guides will point to one part of the room, on an inner wall BTW, as the sweet spot in the room.  The huge room is not insulated, and the temps are not otherwise controlled.  I guess it's time for another tour, now that this thread has raised all these issues.  I can drive the guy nuts yet again with my questions.

Harry, I'm headed down Saturday morning to pick up a barrel I'm buying as an end table.  Excited about my first visit and taking the tour of course.  Can I assume they allow tasting?

 

If yes, I have to strategize on what I select.  The new port barrel finished is on the short list, and if they have any limited edition that's a no brainer.  Trying to get a friend or two to go so we can taste more than 3 apiece, but what else should I look for to taste?

[Harry in WashDC]

1 hour ago, marshbound said:

Harry, I'm headed down Saturday morning to pick up a barrel I'm buying as an end table.  Excited about my first visit and taking the tour of course.  Can I assume they allow tasting?

 

If yes, I have to strategize on what I select.  The new port barrel finished is on the short list, and if they have any limited edition that's a no brainer.  Trying to get a friend or two to go so we can taste more than 3 apiece, but what else should I look for to taste?

They do allow tasting.  IIRC, you get three 1/2 oz. tastes (maybe 3/4oz.).  The three bourbons usually available are Bowman Bros. SmB (90 proof), John J. Bowman SiB (100 proof) and Abe Bowman periodic LE (various).  Likely they'll have Isaac Bowman the port finish now.  On the several (less than a dozen) visits I've made, I've never seen their 80 proof Virginia Gentleman Straight Bourbon offered.  You can get that in most ABC stores.  I think I was once offered some George Bowman rum (NDP - don't know where they get it).  They also have a decent gin - Sunset Hills 80 proof.  The ABC store in Central Park is better than the ABC store on William St. in downtown F'burg.  I've never been to the ABC store just South of the distillery on US 17 (Bus)/State Rte 2.

[JoeTerp]

2 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

They do allow tasting.  IIRC, you get three 1/2 oz. tastes (maybe 3/4oz.).  The three bourbons usually available are Bowman Bros. SmB (90 proof), John J. Bowman SiB (100 proof) and Abe Bowman periodic LE (various).  Likely they'll have Isaac Bowman the port finish now.  On the several (less than a dozen) visits I've made, I've never seen their 80 proof Virginia Gentleman Straight Bourbon offered.  You can get that in most ABC stores.  I think I was once offered some George Bowman rum (NDP - don't know where they get it).  They also have a decent gin - Sunset Hills 80 proof.  The ABC store in Central Park is better than the ABC store on William St. in downtown F'burg.  I've never been to the ABC store just South of the distillery on US 17 (Bus)/State Rte 2.

Last time I went for a tasting, I think they had four samples: George Bowman (rum), Bowman Brothers Small Batch, John J Bowman Single Barrel, and Mary Hite Bowman (Bourbon Cream).  This was before the Isaac Bowman was released though, so they may have that.  I highly doubt that they would have any Abe Bowman as those usually sell out pretty quick.

 

My guess is that they'll have the entire lineup outside of the Abe Bowman available for purchase.

[marshbound]

7 hours ago, JoeTerp said:

My guess is that they'll have the entire lineup outside of the Abe Bowman available for purchase.

Quote

Thanks Joe & Harry.  I was hoping to get lucky with a bottle of Abe but didn't really expect to find one.  If I can taste the port finish first and like it that's a likely one for me.

 

[PaulO]

 First, that looks very scary to me - an accident waiting to happen.

Also, I wonder about the dynamics of the bottom of the barrel staying wet and the top staying dry.  It doesn't seem good. 

[JoeTerp]

13 hours ago, marshbound said:

Thanks Joe & Harry.  I was hoping to get lucky with a bottle of Abe but didn't really expect to find one.  If I can taste the port finish first and like it that's a likely one for me.

For Abe Bowman you pretty much have to go on the release date.  Having zero inside information I would expect another release relatively soon as they haven't released an AB since Memorial Day when they did 16.1 and 16.2 as the Sequential Series.