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Future of Bottled in Bond?

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cdcdguy

Ok I admit I am a huge fan of BIB. Anyone on here probably already knows this about me. However if you think about it there are no issues with quality anymore like this like when the BIB act was created. Still, you get some knowns like 100 proof, at least 4 years, ect. But many bourbons with no age statement could be that. Then there is the same distillay and same season. Not sure if that makes the product better or not. 

 

Most of these BIB are pretty good,if one dimensional. CT and McKenna probably exceptions. Most are one shelf up from the bottom 80 proofers. Some may think it's just a gimmick these days. But they are producing pretty good 100 proof bourbon at good prices. How can a profit be made from HH6 BIB selling for 10 or 12 dollars? 

 

Do you felel prices will start to go up? Some already have. Or do you think they will phase them out and develop something new? Or is BIB here to stay?

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tanstaafl2

Seems to me that BIB seems to have become something of a marketing tool these days rather than when it was first instituted over 100 years ago. Then it was intended to guarantee you really got what you were paying for and not some blended disaster calling itself bourbon. Not so much the case these days.

 

Now it just seems to me to be the latest buzz word to attract new drinkers who have seen the name on the various blogs and wants to have what they think is the "cool" old time stuff.

 

 

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CardsandBourbon

I think with the history of the BIB act and what it meant to the industry you'll always see BIB's on the shelf.  Like with most things it's supply and demand and if the demand for BIB bottles increases then so will the price.  Nothing ever seems to get cheaper.

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PaulO

In the last year or two I've seen a couple favorites go KY only.

On the other hand, a number of new bottled in bond labels came to market.  I just learned that a bonded version of Old Overholt is now available.  I'm a fan of bonds for a long time.  The market may fluctuate a bit, but I think bonded whiskey is here to stay (in one form or another). 

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kaiserhog
1 hour ago, PaulO said:

In the last year or two I've seen a couple favorites go KY only.

On the other hand, a number of new bottled in bond labels came to market.  I just learned that a bonded version of Old Overholt is now available.  I'm a fan of bonds for a long time.  The market may fluctuate a bit, but I think bonded whiskey is here to stay (in one form or another). 

I didn't know that Beam has come out with a bottled in bond Old Overholt.  I hope they give this brand the attention it deserves.

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kevinbrink
11 hours ago, kaiserhog said:

I didn't know that Beam has come out with a bottled in bond Old Overholt.  I hope they give this brand the attention it deserves.

I grabbed a bottle, it is not bad at all, I probably prefer Rittenhouse but in terms of Beam Rye, I was surprised how well it matched up to KC Rye definitely less mature but the OO BIB had a longer more enjoyable finish.

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Harry in WashDC
43 minutes ago, kevinbrink said:

I grabbed a bottle, it is not bad at all, I probably prefer Rittenhouse but in terms of Beam Rye, I was surprised how well it matched up to KC Rye definitely less mature but the OO BIB had a longer more enjoyable finish.

Thanks for the comments.  I'm still looking for it but have decided to get at least one.  You just never know . . .B)

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kaiserhog
8 hours ago, kevinbrink said:

I grabbed a bottle, it is not bad at all, I probably prefer Rittenhouse but in terms of Beam Rye, I was surprised how well it matched up to KC Rye definitely less mature but the OO BIB had a longer more enjoyable finish.

I actually like the standard Old Overholt, I would truly like to get my hands on the bonded version.  Where did you buy it?

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kevinbrink
2 minutes ago, kaiserhog said:

I actually like the standard Old Overholt, I would truly like to get my hands on the bonded version.  Where did you buy it?

PM on it's way.

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smokinjoe

Like Bruce said, I look at Bonds as little more than a marketing effort to create some brand identity.  I really don't see much tangible benefit to the consumer with legacy distillery BIB's.  There really isn't much question on what you're getting in legacy whiskies, that otherwise can't be gained from simply reading the label.  However, I feel that a BIB designation can very much be an indicator of "quality", provenance, etc, for "craft" distillers.  Not being proven entities to most of their customers, even those customers who may know of a certain craft distillery, a BIB designation answers a lot of questions and would carry a badge of legitimacy for the bottle.  At least, it would for me.  

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DCFan
On 1/8/2018 at 8:03 PM, cdcdguy said:

 

Do you felel prices will start to go up? Some already have. Or do you think they will phase them out and develop something new? Or is BIB here to stay?

 

If the demand is there and the distilleries can make money off of it they'll provide it. Myself I like the standards that label provides the consumer. That and I'm digging OGD BiB which I think is a quality pour at a very reasonable price. I will spend just to check some items off the bucket list but that doesn't mean it's all I drink.

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kevinbrink
4 hours ago, smokinjoe said:

Like Bruce said, I look at Bonds as little more than a marketing effort to create some brand identity.  I really don't see much tangible benefit to the consumer with legacy distillery BIB's.  There really isn't much question on what you're getting in legacy whiskies, that otherwise can't be gained from simply reading the label.  However, I feel that a BIB designation can very much be an indicator of "quality", provenance, etc, for "craft" distillers.  Not being proven entities to most of their customers, even those customers who may know of a certain craft distillery, a BIB designation answers a lot of questions and would carry a badge of legitimacy for the bottle.  At least, it would for me.  

I've been thinking about this myself, and wonder how successful the Bottled in Bond designation will be to the "craft" guys long term. I think it gives them legitimacy in the enthusiast community since people understand what the designation means, but to the average non enthusiast consumer, I kind of wonder if there is the potential for the opposite effect. If you were in a store and you looked at say these 4 bottles EW White BIB $15, Jim Beam BIB $25, HM10 BIB $30 and AD Laws BIB $90 wouldn't it be easy to pass on the Laws as a poor value? Maybe I'm over analyzing this but it seems like a double edged sword.  

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kaiserhog
On 1/10/2018 at 12:05 PM, kevinbrink said:

I've been thinking about this myself, and wonder how successful the Bottled in Bond designation will be to the "craft" guys long term. I think it gives them legitimacy in the enthusiast community since people understand what the designation means, but to the average non enthusiast consumer, I kind of wonder if there is the potential for the opposite effect. If you were in a store and you looked at say these 4 bottles EW White BIB $15, Jim Beam BIB $25, HM10 BIB $30 and AD Laws BIB $90 wouldn't it be easy to pass on the Laws as a poor value? Maybe I'm over analyzing this but it seems like a double edged sword.  

Bottled in Bond gives them a template for quality. 

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cdcdguy

I would think many craft distilleries could qualify once there product is old enough.

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Whiskeythink.com

This does give crafts some needed legitimacy, but they gotta price it fairly. $45 maybe? EHT SmB is BIB & $40, & flys off the shelf.

 

Tom Foolery (Ohio?) is an example. They put out a BIB, & that seemed to me to get them noticed. I think it was around $55 (I havent tried it tho so no idea on quality)

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Richnimrod
1 hour ago, cdcdguy said:

I would think many craft distilleries could qualify once there product is old enough.

But, would they?    I think this is a valid question.   

If I ran such an enterprise, I believe I would give it serious consideration.

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lcpfratn
I've been thinking about this myself, and wonder how successful the Bottled in Bond designation will be to the "craft" guys long term. I think it gives them legitimacy in the enthusiast community since people understand what the designation means, but to the average non enthusiast consumer, I kind of wonder if there is the potential for the opposite effect. If you were in a store and you looked at say these 4 bottles EW White BIB $15, Jim Beam BIB $25, HM10 BIB $30 and AD Laws BIB $90 wouldn't it be easy to pass on the Laws as a poor value? Maybe I'm over analyzing this but it seems like a double edged sword.  

AD Laws isn’t cheap, but that is very expensive compared to my area. I believe I paid less than $70 for my bottle of AD Laws 4 Grain BIB. I believe they now also have a Secale Rye BIB that is a bit higher priced than the 4 Grain. Is AD Laws 4 Grain worth $70...probably not, but I like it a lot better than EW BIB. I haven’t tried JB BIB, but I really like HMK10.

I do think BIB can give craft distillers some legitimacy as long as they still price their products somewhere in the realm of a reasonable price.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Surtur

I used to think of it as referring to affordable quality most of all. Evan Williams, OGD, and Henry McKenna BiB have long been house favorites over here at far lower prices than what the juice would otherwise call for. As with anything else it’s becoming a marketing trick as more people begin to use the term in regular speech. For example, when college students start saying they like bottled in bond bourbons because they’re great quality, the bourbon companies will see great value in that and raise prices. To answer the original question, no I don’t think it will disappear. It has become a commodity like the term “small batch”. What bourbon was that a few years back that called itself “small batch single barrel bourbon”?

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musekatcher

I'm sure its been adopted as trendy, but there is merit in all (8) requirements to be bonded:

 

To be labeled as bottled-in-bond or bonded, the liquor must be the product of 1) one distillation season (January–June or July–December) and 2) one distiller at one distillery. It must have been aged in a 3) federally bonded warehouse under U.S. government supervision for at least 4) four years and bottled at 5) 100 (U.S.) proof (50% alcohol by volume). The bottled product's label must 6) identify the distillery where it was distilled and, if different, 7) where it was bottled.[2][3] Only spirits 8) produced in the United States may be designated as bonded

 

Same season, same distiller means less mingling and mixing.  That could be good or bad.   Aged under USG supervision means publishing where and who did the aging.  Minimum four years aging and 100 proof insure some flavor.  Requiring the distillery and bottler on the label also publishes where and who is involved.  US only production makes it more difficult for off-shore counterfeiting. 

 

For less experienced producers, wouldn't all these requirements produce a better product?  For more experienced producers, 1), 2), and 3) might actually be limiting, where expert mixing sources produces a better product. 

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kaiserhog
15 hours ago, Whiskeythink.com said:

 EHT SmB is BIB & $40, & flys off the shelf.

 

 

Tried some EHT SmB BIB last night and it's smell and taste was one of the best.  Will definitely be purchasing a bottle.  My favorite Buffalo Trace product to date.

 

15 hours ago, Whiskeythink.com said:

 

 

Tom Foolery (Ohio?) is an example. They put out a BIB, & that seemed to me to get them noticed. I think it was around $55 (I havent tried it tho so no idea on quality)

Rock Town (Arkansas) put out a BIB Bourbon and it was good.

Edited by kaiserhog
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El Vino
On 1/10/2018 at 1:05 PM, kevinbrink said:

I've been thinking about this myself, and wonder how successful the Bottled in Bond designation will be to the "craft" guys long term. I think it gives them legitimacy in the enthusiast community since people understand what the designation means, but to the average non enthusiast consumer, I kind of wonder if there is the potential for the opposite effect. If you were in a store and you looked at say these 4 bottles EW White BIB $15, Jim Beam BIB $25, HM10 BIB $30 and AD Laws BIB $90 wouldn't it be easy to pass on the Laws as a poor value? Maybe I'm over analyzing this but it seems like a double edged sword.  

Legitimacy may be the right word, but the only kind of legitimacy that matters is the quality of product that the craft distillers put in the bottle.  A BIB designation might get you to buy once...

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ken_mays

I'm a fan of it insofar as it brings potentially higher proof and age to whiskies which might not otherwise be available in an expression I'd be interested in.   Honestly though, it wouldn't surprise me if there were some loophole nowadays where all the requirements of BIB no longer have to be met.   

 

With the boom being what it is, I can't imagine distillers desperate for aged product leaving juice in the barrels longer.  More likely, they are cannibalizing from stock intended for older, more premium expressions. 

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cdcdguy
11 hours ago, musekatcher said:

I'm sure its been adopted as trendy, but there is merit in all (8) requirements to be bonded:

 

To be labeled as bottled-in-bond or bonded, the liquor must be the product of 1) one distillation season (January–June or July–December) and 2) one distiller at one distillery. It must have been aged in a 3) federally bonded warehouse under U.S. government supervision for at least 4) four years and bottled at 5) 100 (U.S.) proof (50% alcohol by volume). The bottled product's label must 6) identify the distillery where it was distilled and, if different, 7) where it was bottled.[2][3] Only spirits 8) produced in the United States may be designated as bonded

 

Same season, same distiller means less mingling and mixing.  That could be good or bad.   Aged under USG supervision means publishing where and who did the aging.  Minimum four years aging and 100 proof insure some flavor.  Requiring the distillery and bottler on the label also publishes where and who is involved.  US only production makes it more difficult for off-shore counterfeiting. 

 

For less experienced producers, wouldn't all these requirements produce a better product?  For more experienced producers, 1), 2), and 3) might actually be limiting, where expert mixing sources produces a better product. 

This is a well thought out post. I hadn't considered a lot of this.

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cdcdguy
1 hour ago, ken_mays said:

I'm a fan of it insofar as it brings potentially higher proof and age to whiskies which might not otherwise be available in an expression I'd be interested in.   Honestly though, it wouldn't surprise me if there were some loophole nowadays where all the requirements of BIB no longer have to be met.   

 

With the boom being what it is, I can't imagine distillers desperate for aged product leaving juice in the barrels longer.  More likely, they are cannibalizing from stock intended for older, more premium expressions. 

Loophole where all conditions didn't need to be met would be disappointing. Then the term would be worthless.

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Richnimrod
1 hour ago, cdcdguy said:

Loophole where all conditions didn't need to be met would be disappointing. Then the term would be worthless.

I doubt there are any "loopholes". 

Enforcement being as lax as it is with TTB, however, may render any/all of the rules more or less meaningless, unless or until somebody goads 'em into actually enforcing their own rules.  

It may not be that difficult, if courts of law were to be employed.    Short of that, however?   Who can say?

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