Attention Vodka Drinkers

[voigtman]

For those intrigued by the Polish Starka (there is also a Russian Starka that is not at all the same as the Polish one): http://www.polishvodka.com.pl/fr_starka-story.htm

Fifty years in one barrel! That must really be something. I wonder how it can avoid woodiness, though. Presumably the oak barrels are not charred. Onyone know if charred barrels are used for anything other that bourbon, rye and scotch? OK, maybe Irish and Canadian, and scotch imitators, but other than these usual suspects? Cheers, Ed

[Gillman]

Ed, to my knowledge, new charred barrels are used by Cognac makers but only for the first year or two of aging: after that they transfer the spirit to reused casks. As for Polish Starka, surely it would have been aged (or principally) in ex-wine barrels and mainly those that held sherry or Malaga or similar. The wine addition seems a key part of the Starka character, and that would be obtained by entering the new rye spirit into barrels that used to hold Malaga or another sweet wine. See also the Starka web site for more information.

Gary

[voigtman]

Gary, thanks for setting me straight! Seems obvious now that you repeat it! Duh! Unfortunately, we have almost no Polish grad students or post-docs here right now, which would open up a muling opportunity, but I will be keeping an eye open for a chance to get a younger (say 10 year old) Starka. Even a mini would be great. It is amazing what variety is out there. Cheers, Ed

[Gillman]

Well, thanks but really there is so much to learn in these areas, I constantly acquire new knowledge from others on this forum, from the Internet and other reading, from tasting, from thinking.. The web site I was referring to in my last message is www.polmos.szczecin.pl.. In fact, my understanding that Starka is aged in ex-sherry and Malaga casks comes from a number of sources including the two sites we have discussed. Since such casks are reused, they would not necessarily impart heavy wood (tannic) character to the drink notwithstanding the very long aging periods employed for some Starka.

Gary

[cowdery]

new charred barrels are used by Cognac makers but only for the first year or two of aging: after that they transfer the spirit to reused casks.

How does that work, exactly? It would seem that after the "first year or two of aging" the cask it currently is in is "used." If they take it out of one now-used cask to put it into another used cask, what do they do with the first used cask? Put some other two-year-old Cognac into it?

Oh wait, I forgot. Cognac is in France. Now it makes perfect sense.

[Gillman]

I think the idea is to get maximum wood extract that only a new cask can give, but they don't want too much. If they left it in the new cask after the first year or two, it would acquire a deep wood character, like Bourbon. They don't want that, so they change casks, they put it into one used many times or at least more than once. What do they do with the casks only used once? I am not sure, maybe they are sold to winemakers, or sherry houses. Also, they may transfer old cognac into these on the theory that additional wood extract won't hurt older spirit as much as it might tender young spirit. I understand casks in brandy making are reused time and again until they fall apart. It seems some of the new casks are charred pretty fair (we had this discussion earlier) but perhaps not to the extent of new Bourbon barrels..

Gary

[cowdery]

It's possible the used casks are also decharred, but now we're just guessing.

[Gillman]

Good point. One thing I would say with fair certainty is reused casks have a certain "taste" of, for lack of a better term, "depleted wood". It is maybe a very faint charred taste, or an oakiness which is not quite plain wood but rather (understandably!) "used wood". I detect it in much Canadian whisky, recently in Michter's Unblended American Whiskey, and some Spanish brandy. Can't say for Cognac because I drink too little of it. New charred oak really does impart the best of the barrel to whiskey; after that it's downhill all the way. In that sense, I can see the logic of not drinking bourbon too old, the whole point is to allow the barrel to succour the whiskey and no doubt the red layer is key here. Once that goes, the oak container doesn't do the same thing for the spirit. Of course with brandy, scotch, Canadian whisky and American whiskeys other than bourbon that's okay: the makers don't want that rich wood sugar smokey taste to get in the spirit, or not too much of it. Different strokes, or maybe just a convenient intra- and international industry arrangement, but it all works very well..

Gary

[Gillman]

Picking out Chuck's post here to juxtapose some notes after tasting Grey Goose and Ketel One recently side-by-side. Reason being his remarks sum up my reaction: even premium vodkas such as these reflect to a large degree a "quest for neutrality"; and yet there are evident differences between these vodkas once that is taken as the baseline. Ketel One has mild aroma but a rather heavy, soft body: "creamy", "sweet", yet not sugary. Very soft mouth feel, "pillowy", a vodka counterpart to EWSB '94. The label advertises pot distillation and no doubt this adds a lot to the flavor and texture of this drink. I drank it neat at room temperature as I did the Grey Goose. Said gander was quite different: much thinner, harsher, with all the flavour packed into the finish, an interesting bitter-like (not quite quinine, but close) aftertaste which gave it its top-note. I could see why people like GG because it would "poke through" soda or other mixes. The Ketel would too, but in a different way. To me, the Ketel was clearly superior, a well-made neutral-type spirit but not really bland at all. Vodka or at least good vodka is one of those mysterious drinks: drunk neat, especially at room temerature, it seems to acquire a flavor all its own. A bibulous paradox, perhaps..

Gary

[CompleteNovice]

I always wondered about that. It seems every vodka distiller is competing to see how many times they can distill the spirits and how neutral an ethanol they can produce.

I tried Stolichnaya and found it to taste like... straight ethanol in distilled water! A friend says Grey Goose is much better (she takes one sniff of a vodka's vapors and professes to know the quality... I don't believe it though).

My question is, how can any vodka NOT taste and smell like... straight ethanol in distilled water??

Time to purchase an assortment of those "airline portion" bottles.

There must be various volatile organic compounds which make it all the way through the distillation process with the ethanol. They'd have to have boiling points very close to that of ethanol, wouldn't they? ...limiting them to a fairly narrow selection.

The only source of flavor I can think of, besides any that might arise from the water used to dilute the GNS, would come from the container in which the spirits are stored. Vodka, having no special flavor of its own in a pure form, will easily "wear on its sleeve" any foreign flavors it's picked up from a container... because there's nothing to mask their taste. Consider what happens if you leave "pure" water in a plastic jug for a few days- you cannot help but taste the "plastic". Ethanol is a better solvent for many of these compounds than is water. Still, I don't know how you can appreciably take away from vodka's "reagent-grade ethanol in distilled water" taste and smell.

[cowdery]

Read through the rest of the posts in this thread. I wouldn't exactly say they made me a believer, but they gave me a few things to think about. The human sense of taste (okay, really the sense of smell) is incredibly powerful, but so is the imagination.

[Gillman]

Good points and questions. The fact is, no matter the thoroughness of distillation method, as you say volatiles must enter the distillate at vaporisation points close to that of ethanol. They in part - and it is known very, very small concentrations are`detectable by some humans - must account for the different flavours and mouthfeels of different vodkas. The mouthfeel in particular of Ketel One vs. Grey Goose was striking. Both were the same proof, too (80 proof). The water is another factor, probably. Glass would not react with ethanol though, so the plastic issue would only affect mini bottles sold in that form (not all are) and jug-type containers made from polystyrene or similar materials. Probably the type of charcoal or other filters used have an impact too no matter how deactivated they are.

Can one tell by nose alone? Possibly an experienced palate could do so.

Gary

[Gillman]

Here is favorite quote of mine on vodka from, "The World Atlas of Food - A Gourmet's Guide To The Great Regional Dishes of The World" (Mitchell Beazley, 1974):

"The Russians drink much too much vodka - or so their government thinks. Since the 1950's there has been an official campaign to promote wine-drinking at the expense of vodka. In practice the two co-exist very happily. Wine consumption goes up - vodka stays put.

Good vodka is the nearest thing to plain alcohol that the distiller can produce. He may start with grain, or potatoes, or even wood shavings, but his object is to remove, by distilling and filtering, every vestige of anything except alcohol and water. The result is a drink which is more like an injection. It seems absurd to claim that in some way this spirit is delicious. But so it is - ice-cold, snorted back a glassful at a time with richly oily tidbits. This is the classic beginning to a Russian meal. Nothing can replace it".

Gary