Richnimrod Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Saul_cooperstein said: I think refill is very rare occurance in on-premises and risks significantly outweigh benefits - especially with risk of exposure through ex-employees and liquor license being taken (among other liabilities) ...and to extent there is refill, likely happening more with grey goose or tito’s being refilled with well vs LE whiskey. I’ve worked with lots of restaurants / bars and never seen or heard of any refill. You may have 'worked with'; but still have been unaware of tampering. It isn't the sort of thing one would share, I'm sure. I do know for certain of one tavern owner who did exactly as you describe, though.... He stayed way past close to catch up on "the books", which was a time when he traded a good deal of Popov Vodka for premium brands, and may have done similar dilutions (same proof / cheaper brand) of whiskeys. I know he did it, because I was there when it happened once, having stayed with him to help clean up and await an early morning fishing trip we'd planned together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saul_cooperstein Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 20 hours ago, Richnimrod said: You may have 'worked with'; but still have been unaware of tampering. It isn't the sort of thing one would share, I'm sure. I do know for certain of one tavern owner who did exactly as you describe, though.... He stayed way past close to catch up on "the books", which was a time when he traded a good deal of Popov Vodka for premium brands, and may have done similar dilutions (same proof / cheaper brand) of whiskeys. I know he did it, because I was there when it happened once, having stayed with him to help clean up and await an early morning fishing trip we'd planned together. When I say worked I mean as a CFO overseeing groups of restaurants or overseeing growth and strategy with a focus on financials. I suspect the type of refill behavior you point to is more prevalent (although still rare) in owner-managed locations vs restaurant groups. In a restaurant group there are layers of protections - people, systems, and technology to prevent this type of activity...as well as limited incentives for the folks actually handling inventory. I suspect theft for personal consumption by staff and then refill is higher than for profit refilling which is what was brought up in the thread. Lots of ways from a CFO seat to see this type of activity including COGs, beverage inventory tracking software/service like bevinco, or just being on top of Pmix and understanding for high-priced/high-demand product like that how many sales should occur from limited stocks. There are also systems like Avero that analytically search for fraud that can pinpoint this type of activity (like cash vs credit card ratios to see if drinks not being rung up, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinbrink Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 On 12/29/2018 at 8:52 AM, Richnimrod said: There was also some 'news-media-reported' issue(s) several years ago (5?) in the East (New York? New Jersey?) about a commercial establishment(s?) caught doing it... tavern(s?) I believe. My memory has receded in much the same way as my hairline, and I can't recall; but, do believe there was some discussion of it here, as well. This happened around the block from me along with a bunch of other places in NJ https://investorplace.com/2013/05/29-n-j-bars-restaurants-charged-with-serving-fake-liquor/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinbrink Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Saul_cooperstein said: When I say worked I mean as a CFO overseeing groups of restaurants or overseeing growth and strategy with a focus on financials. I suspect the type of refill behavior you point to is more prevalent (although still rare) in owner-managed locations vs restaurant groups. In a restaurant group there are layers of protections - people, systems, and technology to prevent this type of activity...as well as limited incentives for the folks actually handling inventory. I suspect theft for personal consumption by staff and then refill is higher than for profit refilling which is what was brought up in the thread. Lots of ways from a CFO seat to see this type of activity including COGs, beverage inventory tracking software/service like bevinco, or just being on top of Pmix and understanding for high-priced/high-demand product like that how many sales should occur from limited stocks. There are also systems like Avero that analytically search for fraud that can pinpoint this type of activity (like cash vs credit card ratios to see if drinks not being rung up, etc). If you read the link I posted above in NJ there were a number of National Chain Restaurants in NJ found to be refilling bottles in addition to local places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinbrink Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 On 12/28/2018 at 11:55 AM, Jazzhead said: What is happening now is high prices for age statements and "special editions". But there is still great bourbon to be had at almost half the price of "ordinary" single malt scotch. Such as Beam Distillers Cut at less than $25 bucks a bottle. Or good ol' Wild Turkey 101. There are certainly some decent value Scotch Pours under $30 (at least here in NJ). I like Tomatin 12 & the current Loch Lomond 12 enough that I always have a bottle of each, and Speyburn 10, Glen Moray 12, Deanston Virgin Oak all have their merits, I'm sure there are some I'm forgetting. I think the price gap between Scotch and Bourbon is in fact narrowing, the only place where bourbon dominates for me is the sub $20 price range. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbroo5880i Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 41 minutes ago, kevinbrink said: This happened around the block from me along with a bunch of other places in NJ https://investorplace.com/2013/05/29-n-j-bars-restaurants-charged-with-serving-fake-liquor/ Wow, seemed to be a thing with TGI Friday's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbroo5880i Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 I am not personally familiar with establishments refilling bottles but I am familiar with instances where I have requested they refill my glass. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzhead Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 15 hours ago, kevinbrink said: There are certainly some decent value Scotch Pours under $30 (at least here in NJ). I like Tomatin 12 & the current Loch Lomond 12 enough that I always have a bottle of each, and Speyburn 10, Glen Moray 12, Deanston Virgin Oak all have their merits, I'm sure there are some I'm forgetting. I think the price gap between Scotch and Bourbon is in fact narrowing, the only place where bourbon dominates for me is the sub $20 price range. I just received a bottle of the Tomatin 12 for a Christmas gift - I look forward to opening it. I also echo your thoughts about Glen Moray 12, which is a prototypical and very drinkable Speysider at a good price. Here in Pennsy, I'd say $45 - $55 is about what most of the Scotches with age statements are going for. And you're right that the price gap between bourbon and scotch is indeed narrowing. The craft distillers seem to be settling at about the "ordinary" scotch price point of between $45 and $50. And the big boys have noticed - take a $25 bourbon and give it a small batch presentation, and you can get fifty bucks for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinjoe Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, Jazzhead said: The craft distillers seem to be settling at about the "ordinary" scotch price point of between $45 and $50. And the big boys have noticed - take a $25 bourbon and give it a small batch presentation, and you can get fifty bucks for it! The only thing the “big boys” may have noticed is that if suckers will pay $45 to $50 for the plethora of craft swill on the market, they might as well price accordingly for an actually drinkable product. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzhead Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 On 12/31/2018 at 12:03 PM, smokinjoe said: The only thing the “big boys” may have noticed is that if suckers will pay $45 to $50 for the plethora of craft swill on the market, they might as well price accordingly for an actually drinkable product. That's your opinion; mine is that, more and more, the craft distillers are producing excellent, drinkable whiskeys. Yes, there's the issue of separating the wheat from the chaff, but there are a number of craft products to which I've returned and purchased second and third bottles. My view is to use the internet and forums like this to disseminate information so the quality distillers can be identified, not engaging in rhetoric by which all craft distillers are branded as purveyors of "swill". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinjoe Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Jazzhead said: That's your opinion; mine is that, more and more, the craft distillers are producing excellent, drinkable whiskeys. Yes, there's the issue of separating the wheat from the chaff, but there are a number of craft products to which I've returned and purchased second and third bottles. My view is to use the internet and forums like this to disseminate information so the quality distillers can be identified, not engaging in rhetoric by which all craft distillers are branded as purveyors of "swill". I didn’t say all. I said plethora. Which is to say...nearly all... And, I’m just talking bourbon here. My position for craft bourbon is that it at least has to be equal to Evan Williams Black Label to even be considered “quality”. I’ve not tasted one that is close yet. Not one had approached 36 mo AA, even. Edited January 4, 2019 by smokinjoe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinbrink Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 39 minutes ago, smokinjoe said: I didn’t say all. I said plethora. Which is to say...nearly all... And, I’m just talking bourbon here. My position for craft bourbon is that it at least has to be equal to Evan Williams Black Label to even be considered “quality”. I’ve not tasted one that is close yet. Not one had approached 36 mo AA, even. Out of curiosity have you had New Riff yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzhead Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 On 12/31/2018 at 12:03 PM, smokinjoe said: The only thing the “big boys” may have noticed is that if suckers will pay $45 to $50 for the plethora of craft swill on the market, they might as well price accordingly for an actually drinkable product. And another thought - the implication of your statement is that the "big boys" are treating the consumer as a sucker. Craft products are priced higher for a reason; they don't enjoy the economies of scale of the big boys and sometimes engage in methods that suggest higher quality , such as pot distillation, locally grown ingredients, and small batches. These things may not matter to you, and that's fine, but they do account for the higher price that a quality craft distiller must charge. But speaking for myself, I'd rather pay the craft distiller's honest price than the "sucker" price charged by the big distiller whose economies of scale would permit it to price their product lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzhead Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, smokinjoe said: I didn’t say all. I said plethora. Which is to say...nearly all... And, I’m just talking bourbon here. My position for craft bourbon is that it at least has to be equal to Evan Williams Black Label to even be considered “quality”. I’ve not tasted one that is close yet. Not one had approached 36 mo AA, even. I understand - good craft bourbon is indeed the holy grail. (Notice how so many craft distillers punt and put out rye instead?) I agree that good bourbon needs to have sufficient aging - more so than rye - and I'd say it at least needs to be a straight. And some craft distillers are now selling straight bourbon, and some of it is, IMO at least, very tasty. (Full disclosure - I've never been a fan of EW, so if that's the bar then I say a lot of craft bourbons exceed it!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinjoe Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jazzhead said: And another thought - the implication of your statement is that the "big boys" are treating the consumer as a sucker. Craft products are priced higher for a reason; they don't enjoy the economies of scale of the big boys and sometimes engage in methods that suggest higher quality , such as pot distillation, locally grown ingredients, and small batches. These things may not matter to you, and that's fine, but they do account for the higher price that a quality craft distiller must charge. But speaking for myself, I'd rather pay the craft distiller's honest price than the "sucker" price charged by the big distiller whose economies of scale would permit it to price their product lower. Pot still does not equate to higher quality. Most legacies obtain their grain locally, save for the ones which are not conducive to be sourced in Kentucky climate from a quality and economic standpoint. And, these small batches are not quality indicators, either. It could be argued they hinder quality at the craft level. No reason to argue these points. We all like what we like, and have our own opinions that aren’t meant nor needed to form any sort of consensus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinjoe Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 10 minutes ago, Jazzhead said: I understand - good craft bourbon is indeed the holy grail. (Notice how so many craft distillers punt and put out rye instead?) I agree that good bourbon needs to have sufficient aging - more so than rye - and I'd say it at least needs to be a straight. And some craft distillers are now selling straight bourbon, and some of it is, IMO at least, very tasty. (Full disclosure - I've never been a fan of EW, so if that's the bar then I say a lot of craft bourbons exceed it!) I have an opinion on why we think rye doesn’t need as much aging and seems to sometimes be able to be “good” at the craft level. But, I’ll save that for another time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinjoe Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 51 minutes ago, kevinbrink said: Out of curiosity have you had New Riff yet? I’m not sure. I seem to think there was a bottle at the Gazebo, but I don’t remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinbrink Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, smokinjoe said: I have an opinion on why we think rye doesn’t need as much aging and seems to sometimes be able to be “good” at the craft level. But, I’ll save that for another time... It certainly helps that most Rye fans were really only ever exposed to younger ryes for so long that that's kind of where our measuring stick starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcgumbohead Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I haven't read all 4 pages (so far) so please excuse. Joe as the resident "Weller whore" I appreciate your frustration but I will contend that it is simply frustration justified though it may be. Now given the posted history of your purchases, I would also bet your bunker will suffice for quite some time and in quite some time the issues you raise I expect will have resolved themselves. Production is/has been on a big time upswing, our temporary adversary is time, time to mature into a viable product, its happening and its coming. I will say for the newbie ( just getting into what many here have enjoyed for decades) its a frustrating and expensive time (sucks for them but read on). I will also posit that the effort expended filling those vaunted bunkers that most of us have was built for a reason, what reason? well who knows but the current "market conditions" are as good an excuse as any, lets all just have a drink shall we? Not that it calms the wheater aficionados but damn, that WT distillery is cranking out some superb product across all price points to bridge the gap till that ageing ocean of whiskey (wheated and otherwise) in KY matures to an acceptable age. (newbies take note and rejoice) 9.99 Welller SR? maybe not again anytime soon but brighter days lie ahead, just count to 10 and give it a few years. (FWIW 9.99 was still too steep in my book LOL!!) Peace and happy imbibbing my SB brothers and sistas. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinbrink Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, smokinjoe said: I’m not sure. I seem to think there was a bottle at the Gazebo, but I don’t remember. YMMV but it is the first Craft bourbon I've had that makes me a believer, now to be fair, it is a big facility using real column stills so that is certainly a big part of it as well as the fact that Larry Ebersold formerly of Seagrams/MGP was involved. I'm not sold on pot stills for bourbon, I don't even care for Woodford products, but "Higher Rye" Ryes (and clearly Malt) tend to fair better and I kind of wonder if those profiles just tend to work better than corn with the "dirtier" distillation done in Pot stills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzhead Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, smokinjoe said: Pot still does not equate to higher quality. Most legacies obtain their grain locally, save for the ones which are not conducive to be sourced in Kentucky climate from a quality and economic standpoint. And, these small batches are not quality indicators, either. It could be argued they hinder quality at the craft level. No reason to argue these points. We all like what we like, and have our own opinions that aren’t meant nor needed to form any sort of consensus. 52 minutes ago, smokinjoe said: I don't necessarily disagree, Joe, these craft techniques aren't necessarily indicators of "quality" - the big distillers no doubt put out quality products - but may influence the taste of the dram, and may provide certain subjective pleasure to the drinker who likes the idea of terroir or the craft ethos generally. In the end, it all comes down to what tastes good, and that's a subjective matter. My small point is merely that in my opinion there are now some craft bourbons that are excellent and well worth the price, and I admit that I reacted to your categorical characterization of these products as "swill". But there's no reason to argue - I understand your position and I'm sure you understand mine. Edited January 4, 2019 by Jazzhead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRich Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I’m not sure. I seem to think there was a bottle at the Gazebo, but I don’t remember. Don’t we all say that sometime Sunday afternoon or Monday morning each April and September? 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinjoe Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 2 hours ago, BigRich said: Don’t we all say that sometime Sunday afternoon or Monday morning each April and September? I know, right?!?! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicotequila Posted May 7, 2019 Share Posted May 7, 2019 On 12/26/2018 at 7:43 AM, jshleffar said: I may be way off base here, but I believe the issue is the agave plant itself and it taking 10ish years to be mature enough to harvest. Not the aging process in barrel. I am new to this forum and I was reading this threat where I will like to add my cents to it. I am lover of must agave spirits. I am not an expert but I do know a few things here and there. I DO love Tequila... a good tequila... and not only for its taste but for what it means, its tradition and how it is embedded in the mexican culture and has expanded world wide. How it has overcome the view of been just a cheap quick drink outside of Mexico to now been appreciated and respected just like it is in Mexico. Its a big step. Also a lot of spirits dont make it outside of their own state in a lot of countries, and more if they have strictly regulations about where it can be produce... This is something that is impressive in those spirits that have managed to do that by its own (and I am not only talking about Tequila). Of my knowledge and experience with spirits I am a believer that most have their complexity and charms, as in their taste as in their production. Some of them its at the beginning of their process (plantation) others at the end (aging). What is interesting to see ..... taste! is their evolution and adaptation. Right now Tequila has overcome worldwide that look of cheap drink and now its getting into higher levels that previously were not consider it could get. And while there are plenty of people that love Tequila Blanco, looking to enjoy, taste the flavor of the agave, the power that has been created in those 8 odd years; are others that are looking for something more mature, more knowledgeable which only the aging in barrels can give you, and that's where we fall in this threat. Like another comment mentioned in this threat about some Tequilas now going the distance in aging, I know that it will become a reality and a constant in future years. Right now the new version of Tequila Cristalino (that some brands are now commercializing) is out in the market which is doing something different for the category and when the barrels of 5 - 10 years start coming out regularly it will turn this spirit into something bigger than what it is now since it will have the work and love put before in its harvesting for 8 years, and then the patience and peace of aging after its distillation for 5 to ???? years. It's going to make Tequila a very robust, complete industry. And that is the same with other agave spirits. Sotol for example is kicking goals and it has an amazing 5 years old aging in french oak barrels, after 15 years before harvesting its agave - Sotol Hacienda de Chihuahua H5 - and also Mezcal - around 8-10 years aging in american oak barrels after 8 years before harvest - Joya Azul Gran Reserva. All this is not to say that it will be better than Whisky or any other spirit, only whiskies, bourbons, etc can get better among themselves and its not a matter of competing with other spirits. Each spirit has its place, time and moment. Thats it, those were my 2 cents put on this. I hope I didnt bore you. So for now lets enjoy Tequila, Whisky, Bourbon or any spirit for what its giving us. They are fantastic!! Cheers 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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