Fred

[FasterHorses]

I guess he used to post here. Whats the prevailing opinion. Seems like the biggest thing he does is cause price increases. I can apologize if im out of line. 

[kevinbrink]

Clearly he is successful as a mouthpiece for the industry, his tasting notes are a bit flowery for my tastes but I tend to still follow his content. I take much of it in context as he is enthusiastically pro-bourbon industry, but he has some credibility with me particularly going back to his story about Chatham/Michter's vs. Stoll and Wolfe. I don't know that Minnick alone is driving prices, McKenna in particular had been on the upward trend in terms of visibility on the blogs and forums and the decision to make it the winner at the SF Spirits Comp wasn't his alone, with that one people just want someone to blame IMHO.  

[FasterHorses]

Kevin.. i surely respect your opinion. Thanks for the reply. Someone posted an interview with him and the guy from heaven hill a few months back. Cant remember his name but the HH guy who was retiring basically said the HHBIB deal was all about profits. I think ever since then Ive associated Fred with being one and the same as that fella and that mindset. And then the McKenna thing happened. 

I dont care really... if i could turn my interest in bourbon into a great income i probably would just like him... but I just want to see if my cynical nature is correct about this guy. 

[flahute]

6 minutes ago, FasterHorses said:

Kevin.. i surely respect your opinion. Thanks for the reply. Someone posted an interview with him and the guy from heaven hill a few months back. Cant remember his name but the HH guy who was retiring basically said the HHBIB deal was all about profits. I think ever since then Ive associated Fred with being one and the same as that fella and that mindset. And then the McKenna thing happened. 

I dont care really... if i could turn my interest in bourbon into a great income i probably would just like him... but I just want to see if my cynical nature is correct about this guy. 

I think you have misinterpreted that interview with Larry Kass.

[FasterHorses]

Flahute.. i definitely could have.. thats why im asking you fellas that have way more bourbon   wisdom than i do. Like i said im willing to apologize if im out of line.

 

[flahute]

59 minutes ago, FasterHorses said:

Flahute.. i definitely could have.. thats why im asking you fellas that have way more bourbon   wisdom than i do. Like i said im willing to apologize if im out of line.

 

There are definitely reasons to criticize Fred, but he also does good. It's complicated.

Fred does a lot to support charity, including with our group, that he doesn't get paid for.

He supports the industry full time and tells great stories. 

He also has gone all in on making a living from writing and talking about the industry which means he's had to do a lot of work creating his brand and therefore promoting it.

This means that he opens himself up to a lot of criticism for doing what is necessary to generate clicks on his pieces. Some people will naturally question his motives.

I personally like Fred and have met and talked to him several times. He seems to have less time for me these days so I do wonder if he's getting a little too big for his britches. But, I don't make him money.

 

Regarding the Larry Kass interview, the context of discontinuing HH6BIB is this: you have EWSiB that used to be consistently 10yrs old dropping in age down to 8 and 7 years old. You have EC that used to be 12yrs old dropping to a blend of 8-12yrs (and according to my taste buds, the percentage of 8yr old bourbon is growing.

Then you have this 6yr old 100 proof bourbon that is selling for $11. You can see why that's hard to justify for them now.

Is it partly profit based? Sure. But it's also about bastardizing their more flagship brands while getting nothing in return.

[FasterHorses]

Thanks for that. Really great take on both items. Really appreciate your first hand knowledge too. I’ll keep an open mind. 

[Richnimrod]

Several here have mentioned his tasting/reviews as being overly effusive ('flowery'... I like that description, kevinbrink), and I agree with that, and he has been a bit over-the-top on more than a few occasions about this brand or that; but, he is a very knowledgeable guy, and a great story-teller, not to mention a tireless promoter of the Bourbon Industry.    ...And, I find him an approachable and friendly fellow; or at least he used to be when I last had the chance to waste some of his time a few years ago.   His charitable efforts are well known as well; so on balance I don't dislike him, nor consider him a detriment in any way to our hobby.

[alcoholica]

I’ll say it, not a Minnick fan. I grant he has a ton of knowledge and supposedly a great palette. But at the end of the day, I see a car salesman. And sometimes a condescending one at that. 

 

Bourbon is like Nascar. It was for the good ole boys who lived it. Until it became trendy, corporate and sold out to the masses. To me bourbon is losing some heritage and soul throughout this boom and Minnick has fueled his share of it

[Richnimrod]

1 minute ago, alcoholica said:

I grant he has a ton of knowledge and supposedly a great palette.

Fred is an artist/painter???!!!???!!!     I had no idea.   

On another note his palate is pretty discerning as well.   Just wracking on ya' a little, alcoholica, so please don't be offended.

The points you make are not lost on me, and you are certainly entitled to your own evaluation of things.   I'm sure many here will find some agreement with your point of view.

[dad-proof]

1 hour ago, alcoholica said:

Bourbon is like Nascar. It was for the good ole boys who lived it.

 

I have no opinion on Fred specifically, but appreciate what influencers, writers, and advocates as a whole have done to promote Bourbon.

 

And while, Alcoholica is also entitled to his opinion, I don't share a perspective that Bourbon should somehow be reserved for some subset of good ole boys. Bourbon has been a world class spirit for decades, and it wouldn't be what it is today if solely reserved to the good ole boys.

 

Where would BT mashbill #2 be without Japanese investment? Or Four Roses? Thank goodness for the international markets that sustained and invested in Bourbon during the lean years.

 

Thank goodness for the (hipster, millennial) rennaisance of cocktail culture that has been a catalyst for so many more rye and bourbon options.

 

Thank goodness for the corporate ambassadors that have made it possible for us to walk into practically any establishment and know we will have options beyond Jack and Jim.

 

Thank goodness for the women distillers, blenders, and female industry leaders that have ressurected and expanded Bourbons for all to enjoy.

 

Thank goodness (mostly) for the corporate response to the appetite for barrel proof, NCF, private barrel programs, and other premium expressions that used to be as rare as hens teeth.

 

Yeah, all the above carry with them some downsides, but given we can't wish the 90's  and back into existence, I'd rather look to the positive impact of influencers like Fred and the corporate response to the boom, and I come away with a net positive view.  Sorry for the slight thread drift.

[dcbt]

I think you have to take him with a grain of salt.  I mean, there's a degree of self-preservation involved, right?  He makes his living off the bourbon boom, so it behooves him to keep the boom booming.

[Supercharger]

I’m just not that in to the ascots. 

 

Other than that, I follow him to see what he says. He knows more than I do in this area. 

 

I then form my own opinions based on taste. 

[BottledInBond]

I have mixed feelings on Fred.

 

On the one hand he is a voice for the industry and has some good connections, does some charitable things, and good for him for being entrepreneurial and creating a niche for himself.

 

On the other hand, the ascots are stupid and he is really trying to play a character he has invented. I don’t think he knows what tastes better or worse in a glass more than I do, or more so than many people in this forum. Finally, a big negative is that he largely is talking up products, because he makes money from various sources in the industry. It doesn’t do him much good to blast a product, but I want to hear from people that are unbiased and will tell it like it is. He isn’t that guy at this point in his career. 

 

So will I read something he writes? Sure. He does good research and writes well. But by no means do I think a positive mention of a product from him means I should go buy it.....

 

[alcoholica]

9 hours ago, dad-proof said:

 

I have no opinion on Fred specifically, but appreciate what influencers, writers, and advocates as a whole have done to promote Bourbon.

 

And while, Alcoholica is also entitled to his opinion, I don't share a perspective that Bourbon should somehow be reserved for some subset of good ole boys. Bourbon has been a world class spirit for decades, and it wouldn't be what it is today if solely reserved to the good ole boys.

 

Where would BT mashbill #2 be without Japanese investment? Or Four Roses? Thank goodness for the international markets that sustained and invested in Bourbon during the lean years.

 

Thank goodness for the (hipster, millennial) rennaisance of cocktail culture that has been a catalyst for so many more rye and bourbon options.

 

Thank goodness for the corporate ambassadors that have made it possible for us to walk into practically any establishment and know we will have options beyond Jack and Jim.

 

Thank goodness for the women distillers, blenders, and female industry leaders that have ressurected and expanded Bourbons for all to enjoy.

 

Thank goodness (mostly) for the corporate response to the appetite for barrel proof, NCF, private barrel programs, and other premium expressions that used to be as rare as hens teeth.

 

Yeah, all the above carry with them some downsides, but given we can't wish the 90's  and back into existence, I'd rather look to the positive impact of influencers like Fred and the corporate response to the boom, and I come away with a net positive view.  Sorry for the slight thread drift.

Yeah, you just completely misinterpreted the analogy. Completely. 

[flahute]

11 hours ago, alcoholica said:

I’ll say it, not a Minnick fan. I grant he has a ton of knowledge and supposedly a great palette. But at the end of the day, I see a car salesman. And sometimes a condescending one at that. 

 

Bourbon is like Nascar. It was for the good ole boys who lived it. Until it became trendy, corporate and sold out to the masses. To me bourbon is losing some heritage and soul throughout this boom and Minnick has fueled his share of it

Bourbon was trendy, corporate, and targeting the masses well before it became associated with just the good ole boys.

[dad-proof]

1 hour ago, alcoholica said:

Yeah, you just completely misinterpreted the analogy. Completely. 

Well then I'm truly sorry. I couldn't think of another way to interpret it, but then again NASCAR has never been my thing.

[Paddy]

23 hours ago, FasterHorses said:

I guess he used to post here. Whats the prevailing opinion. Seems like the biggest thing he does is cause price increases. I can apologize if im out of line. 

Just my prevailing opinion, as you're likes/dislikes and/or mileage may vary... 

 

He's trying to be Chuck, who happens to be a guy that lays it out in a pretty straightforward way while giving you his take on it. 

 

What I appreciate about Chuck is the above, combined with the fact that he doesn't try to make you believe he's right.  He's pretty cool with the whole hey it's information with some of my opinion thrown in as a value added benefit.

 

To sum it up... Be like Chuck! 

 

Unfortunately, he's not.    

 

 

[alcoholica]

18 hours ago, dad-proof said:

Well then I'm truly sorry. I couldn't think of another way to interpret it, but then again NASCAR has never been my thing.

You’re good. It was never my thing either. We had a case study on it for some training. Essentially, NASCAR priced out all of its fans in lieu of corporate money. So you had all of the loyal fans who more or less get dropped for nothing more than marketing and trying to make the quick buck. 

 

Look at Beam and BT and some others. Booker’s is $90 here, Weller Antique is $50 if you can find it retail at all. FR new batch select is $55 give or take as a new release. 

 

Well all good things come to an end, and this too shall pass. But what happens when the frenzy goes away?  Most of us have plenty of bourbon stocked. So i’m really not too bothered by it. But I don’t want to see a hard crash. 

 

I recently joined two secondary market groups. Not to buy, sell, or trade, but to observe. And to see these allocated bottles sitting 2,3,4 deep is a little ridiculous. Obviously by people who don’t drink the stuff. 

 

My my point is that the glut may not just come from a production/demand issue, but from a hidden supply issue. 

 

And what happens to the $90 Booker’s or $50 Weller Antique? At what point does a distiller drop prices, add age statements? And at what point do allegiances change? Bourbon consumers aren’t dumb. Who’s gaining market share for the post boom?

 

that’s my point, bourbon is pricing their fans out of it. Fred has his niche and he doesn’t care about the consumer. He just wants the craze to continue

[squire]

Having been there at the time I have my own theory.  By the mid 1970s we baby boomers had grown up, completed our education and eschewed the life style of our parents.  Bourbon and martinis were for old people and of course we knew better.  Scotch was hip, wine was cool and every female I knew wanted vodka mixed with something.  

 

Bourbon producers struggled on in face of slumping sales because they had no choice.  It was that or shut down and find some other line of work.  Stills turned to making spirits such as vodka, rum and gin while Old Houses scrambling to find other revenue sources such as becoming importers of Scotch, Canadian, Irish and Brandy, wines and liqueurs.  Those warehouses were still stuffed with unsold Bourbon that just kept getting older.  By the 1980s producers who were still paying taxes and insurance on those aged stocks did what they had to do to get the whisky out of the barrels and into bottles.  It was a good time to be a Bourbon drinker because even ordinary brands such as Kentucky Tavern were filled with well aged 10 year old stock.  

 

Time marches relentlessly on, generations change,  my grandchildren now drink the same cocktails my parents drank and Bourbon has become hip again.

[alcoholica]

1 hour ago, squire said:

Having been there at the time I have my own theory.  By the mid 1970s we baby boomers had grown up, completed our education and eschewed the life style of our parents.  Bourbon and martinis were for old people and of course we knew better.  Scotch was hip, wine was cool and every female I knew wanted vodka mixed with something.  

 

Bourbon producers struggled on in face of slumping sales because they had no choice.  It was that or shut down and find some other line of work.  Stills turned to making spirits such as vodka, rum and gin while Old Houses scrambling to find other revenue sources such as becoming importers of Scotch, Canadian, Irish and Brandy, wines and liqueurs.  Those warehouses were still stuffed with unsold Bourbon that just kept getting older.  By the 1980s producers who were still paying taxes and insurance on those aged stocks did what they had to do to get the whisky out of the barrels and into bottles.  It was a good time to be a Bourbon drinker because even ordinary brands such as Kentucky Tavern were filled with well aged 10 year old stock.  

 

Time marches relentlessly on, generations change,  my grandchildren now drink the same cocktails my parents drank and Bourbon has become hip again.

Heard someone recently blame James Bond and his martini's. 

[The Black Tot]

Agh, Fred's just Fred.

 

If I want to read people's opinions about bourbon, I come here. 

 

I don't get upset when he blows up a release. There will be another. Sometimes I like when he blows something up, so I can accumulate other things while the masses are distracted.

 

I'd have a drink with him. It takes a lot more to offend me than a cravate - actually I kind of like his deciding to pick a polarizing look and go forth damn the torpedoes.

 

[ondarocks]

21 hours ago, alcoholica said:

Heard someone recently blame James Bond and his martini's. 

Maybe a joke but a valid point none the less. Look at what happened to Pinot Noir after Sideways. Generations of Taters and their fickle buying habits influenced by the latest bright, shiny object. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by ondarocks
Addition

[JCwhammie]

21 hours ago, alcoholica said:

Heard someone recently blame James Bond and his martini's. 

I agree. And Don Draper probably had his hand in the uptick in old fashions starting in '07. Seeing the guy's guy drinking something makes people curious. 

[alcoholica]

1 hour ago, ondarocks said:

Maybe a joke but a valid point none the less. Look at what happened to Pinot Noir after Sideways. Generations of Taters and their fickle buying habits influenced by the latest bright, shiny object. 

Think they were serious. 

 

To your point about Sideways. I spoke with a Shafer rep, and their flagship is merlot. I told him my disdain for merlot, and he said try this. It was delicious. He went on to tell me that years ago Merlot was the fashionable wine. So a bunch of crappy producers planted merlot vines and made crappy merlots. Then Sideways came out and all the crappy merlot producers dug up their vines and planted Pinot noir vines. Now they produce crappy Pinot noir