Knob Creek age statement coming back and other news

[Harry in WashDC]

8 minutes ago, CUfan99 said:

The age statement was never dropped from the single barrel, just the small batch. 

Yup.  I meant the SmB.  I shoulda been clearer on what I saw today.

[smokinjoe]

35 minutes ago, Harry in WashDC said:

Yup.  I meant the SmB.  I shoulda been clearer on what I saw today.

You’re a baseball guy, Harry.  So, sort of a Jack Buck moment...

 

 

[CorvallisCracker]

On 1/28/2020 at 5:45 PM, CUfan99 said:

The age statement was never dropped from the single barrel, just the small batch. 

Thanks for making that point. Here in OR, the former goes for $55, the latter for $35 (occasionally on sale for $30). If $20 doesn't seem like a lot to you, think of it in terms of Snickers bars.

[dboland]

I have been a fan of the 14 yo KCs I have purchased lately and was curious about Knob Creek's history. It looks like it was established in 1992 along with Basil Hayden's and four years after Booker's. I was watching Saturday morning cartoons at the time and only remember it much later because of that mid-90s style label and the bottle shape. Then like now it is widely available. 

 

Today they have finishes, limited editions, ryes, etc. and yet still have 14 year old bourbon on the shelf for $50. Why is this the case yet I can't find a Booker's over seven years old for twice as much? I know that regular Booker's was never extra old but I would think that a 14-16 yo Booker's would move at $120-150. Is Knob Creek that much different or separate that they have all of this extra whiskey from the mid-2000s?

[flahute]

1 hour ago, dboland said:

I have been a fan of the 14 yo KCs I have purchased lately and was curious about Knob Creek's history. It looks like it was established in 1992 along with Basil Hayden's and four years after Booker's. I was watching Saturday morning cartoons at the time and only remember it much later because of that mid-90s style label and the bottle shape. Then like now it is widely available. 

 

Today they have finishes, limited editions, ryes, etc. and yet still have 14 year old bourbon on the shelf for $50. Why is this the case yet I can't find a Booker's over seven years old for twice as much? I know that regular Booker's was never extra old but I would think that a 14-16 yo Booker's would move at $120-150. Is Knob Creek that much different or separate that they have all of this extra whiskey from the mid-2000s?

Prepare yourself for a long answer.......

 

KC and Booker's generally age in different parts of the rickhouse. Booker's is purposefully released in the 6-8 yr age range (more 6 these days of course) because that was the age range that Booker himself liked the best when pulled from the "center cut" of the rickhouse. While I agree with you that 10+ year old Booker's could be incredible, there doesn't seem to be much interest in that from Beam. My guess is that they don't want to stray too far from the core philosophy behind the brand and when they do it's only for the occasional LE that occurs on a milestone anniversary year.

 

As to the question about why so many 14yr age range KC's, the answer goes back many years. I have a friend who works at Beam. I remember him telling me back in 2013 or '14 that Beam had a ton of barrels that were meant for KC and the single barrel program that had aged well past the 9 yr age statement that they didn't know what to do with. Remember that back then the boom was in its early stages and KC as a brand was not something that people were particularly targeting. Also remember that Beam is one of the highest volume producers in the industry. So the demand for KC and KCSiB was far below what they were producing so these barrels kept accumulating.

 

Aside: another factor here is the corporate structure of Beam being a company owned by Suntory. The Japanese way of corporate structure came to Beam and to summarize it quickly it is a system where managers come into a department and try to improve performance quickly for whatever division they are in as a way of moving up the corporate ladder. What this means is that a cohesive long term vision and strategy is difficult to foster because the person responsible for that is always changing. It's way more complicated than that but you get the point.

 

Back to KC: so they have all these extra aged barrels they don't know what to do with so they continued to accumulate. I asked my friend back in '14 and '15 if we could do a barrel pick and request the older barrels. At the time the answer was no. Well, they never came up with a plan for these barrels so they simply decided to slowly start randomly releasing them into the single barrel program. Word of that got out very slowly at first. By that time I was in a group that had good relationships with the distilleries so we started doing picks and requesting the older barrels. This time they said yes. Word then really got out there and that combined with the boom being in full swing with many many more groups and stores out there wanting picks led to a sudden spike in demand for these barrels. Along the way Beam sort of wised up and released some of those LE's you referred to. But even then they missed the mark by choosing odd proofs at high prices while the standard picks were still out there at a much better value.

 

At this point those extra aged KC picks are about dried up. You're still seeing it come into some stores because it's been in the pipeline for a long time. It can take 6 months or longer between picking and delivery.

As a further sign that Beam has adjusted is the emergence of Baker's 13yr at a much higher price point while KCSiB picks are back down to the 9yr age range.

 

Hope this helps!

[dboland]

Wow, thank you! The knowledge of this place and willingness to share it always amazes me.

 

KC's place in stores everywhere would make sense to leave them with a larger inventory. Losing the 9 year age statement seemed to imply a shortage of barrels, so suddenly having 14 yo stuff pop up seems a little puzzling. A lot of brands seem to be testing new price points these days and they have gotten me to spend about $50 each on a couple of KCs that I really enjoy. I doubt I would have done that five years ago, irrespective of income.

[flahute]

10 minutes ago, dboland said:

Wow, thank you! The knowledge of this place and willingness to share it always amazes me.

 

KC's place in stores everywhere would make sense to leave them with a larger inventory. Losing the 9 year age statement seemed to imply a shortage of barrels, so suddenly having 14 yo stuff pop up seems a little puzzling. A lot of brands seem to be testing new price points these days and they have gotten me to spend about $50 each on a couple of KCs that I really enjoy. I doubt I would have done that five years ago, irrespective of income.

Remember that KCSiB always kept the age statement. 

The standard KC losing its age statement came before Beam had decided to really start releasing those older barrels into the single barrel program.

Beam, like everyone else, was just starting to really feel the pinch from the boom so they did have a shortage of younger distillate in the pipeline that could reach 9yrs of age and meet projected demand.

And, while it seems like there's a lot of those extra age barrels out there, in terms of volume there were nowhere near enough to support a brand like standard KC. 

[BrokeCal]

Come on Beam let's get this done.  Next week is March and still no bottles with the new labels anywhere to be seen!! The second I see regular KC with a 9 year age statement again I'm buying 3 bottles that day!  Does anyone have any hints as to when they are actually shipping???? There was one supposed sighting already but I think he was just confused, besides, pictures or it didn't happen!! And there were no pics!

[JCwhammie]

4 hours ago, BrokeCal said:

Come on Beam let's get this done.  Next week is March and still no bottles with the new labels anywhere to be seen!! The second I see regular KC with a 9 year age statement again I'm buying 3 bottles that day!  Does anyone have any hints as to when they are actually shipping???? There was one supposed sighting already but I think he was just confused, besides, pictures or it didn't happen!! And there were no pics!

The 12 year 100 proof small batch just hit the STL market. 

[fosmith]

1 hour ago, JCwhammie said:

The 12 year 100 proof small batch just hit the STL market. 

The 12 yr 100 proof has been out here in the SF Bay Area for a couple of months.  No sign of the 9 yr. tho...

[BrokeCal]

Hey guys, Knob Creek has finally updated their website with the new bottles.  This is what they look like, and I can only assume this means they are on the way to stores as we speak.  So keep a weather eye out!  

[Flyfish]

On 6/13/2019 at 9:02 PM, mbroo5880i said:

I have long been a Knob Creek fan.  While I prefer an age statement, I enjoy the NAS version and to be honest I haven't really noticed much difference.  I just hope the restored age statement doesn't result in a significant price increase.

 

 

 

The significance of any price increase is heavily influenced by where you happen to be at the time. In Arizona, I can get a handle of KC for roughly the price of 750 in OH. And Lord help the poor fools who choose to live in the state of WA where the taxes alone would pay for that handle in AZ.

As for Baker's, I laid off for years, even though I liked it, because the price had risen to that of Booker's which I prefer. Last year I saw Baker's in Louisville for $39.99 so I bought a couple. Was afraid that Beam was holding a Going Out of Business sale.

(Most sincere, humble apologies to all you "poor fools." Condolences, too.)

[BrokeCal]

I hope there isn't a price increase.  Honestly though, I highly doubt there is.  This is just a change of their flagship KC.  In most stores I'm positive you'll see the old NAS KC and the new 9 Year in the same line.  It's just a replacement, no new SKU.  The stores will simply replenish their shelf with the new bottle until the old bottles are finally gone.  The high volume stores will probably be the ones that have the new bottles first I would imagine.  For me, KC goes for anywhere from $22 to $30 depending on the LS or Grocery Store you're at.

[BDanner]

NC has the Knob Creek priced at $36.95. I haven't bought in a while, but unless the "new" age stated had a different SKU, this is probably the same price as the NAS from the last couple years.

[BrokeCal]

3 hours ago, BDanner said:

NC has the Knob Creek priced at $36.95. I haven't bought in a while, but unless the "new" age stated had a different SKU, this is probably the same price as the NAS from the last couple years.

Man, I definitely wouldn't be buying KC for $37!!! For that kind of money I'm buying 4RSB or Michter's 

[Limegoldconvertible68]

1 hour ago, BrokeCal said:

Man, I definitely wouldn't be buying KC for $37!!! For that kind of money I'm buying 4RSB or Michter's 

You are forgetting that if you live in a market where KC is $37 than 4RSB is well over $45. Same for Michters. 

[BDanner]

18 hours ago, Limegoldconvertible68 said:

You are forgetting that if you live in a market where KC is $37 than 4RSB is well over $45. Same for Michters. 

Yep...4RSB and Michter's are both $45 here. Being in a control state we are MSRP across the board. That's bad for KC, WT, 4RSB, etc. but it's good when W12, OWA, etc. make a rare appearance.

[Spade]

On 3/9/2020 at 8:33 AM, Richnimrod said:

Short answer?   Pretty damned clever!   

They get masses of OTHER PEOPLE to pay for their Utopian social and economic experiments... seemingly without any negative consequences for themselves when such boondoggles crash and burn in spectacular fashion!

Isn’t there a place on the forum specifically for people to talk about their  political views? 
 

Anyway, glad to see an age statement coming back and FWIW the price didn’t increase in Atlanta, at least at the store I was in last week. 

[BrokeCal]

8 hours ago, Spade said:

glad to see an age statement coming back and FWIW the price didn’t increase in Atlanta, at least at the store I was in last week. 

So you've seen the new bottles on the shelf?

[CardsandBourbon]

No new bottles on the shelf around here.

[mbroo5880i]

On 3/8/2020 at 2:21 PM, Flyfish said:

The significance of any price increase is heavily influenced by where you happen to be at the time. In Arizona, I can get a handle of KC for roughly the price of 750 in OH. And Lord help the poor fools who choose to live in the state of WA where the taxes alone would pay for that handle in AZ.

As for Baker's, I laid off for years, even though I liked it, because the price had risen to that of Booker's which I prefer. Last year I saw Baker's in Louisville for $39.99 so I bought a couple. Was afraid that Beam was holding a Going Out of Business sale.

(Most sincere, humble apologies to all you "poor fools." Condolences, too.)

So true.  I am always amazed at the significant price differences in different areas of the country.  My experience with Baker's has been similar to yours.  I bought a bottle every once in a while when I could find it for in the upper $30s to lower $40s.  I stopped buying when it jumped to $50.  Then it dried up.  Now, I find the single barrel in the low $50s.  I bought a bottle on sale in the mid $40s and really liked it.  Interestingly, KCSiB and Bakers are pretty close in price in my market.

[Spade]

On 3/11/2020 at 2:43 AM, BrokeCal said:

So you've seen the new bottles on the shelf?

I did see them in one store (sorry for the late reply, I'm not on here as much as I used to be). I'm optimistic that this reasonably priced 9 year will keep prices of other similar bourbons in check.