Whistle Pig Boss Hog??

[hawkeye62]

WTH???

 

WhistlePig The Boss Hog The Samurai Scientist Single Barrel Rye Whiskey

$ 585

The Boss Hog Edition 六 is the first American Whiskey finished using Japanese Umeshu, the result of a true collaboration between WhistlePig and Kitaya brewery on Japan’s Kyushu island.

This well-aged Straight Rye Whiskey was created using koji fermentation. Each bottle is adorned with The Samurai Scientist – Jōkichi Takamine – who pioneered koji fermentation in the American whisky industry over a century ago.

Each bottle barrel is bottled at strength, between 120 – 122 proof.

[0895]

 

[Radioyada]

Why the WTH?

 

Just curious.

[hawkeye62]

16 minutes ago, Radioyada said:

Why the WTH?

 

Just curious.

What The H.. rather than What The F.. 

Just bewilderment about who would pay $585 for a bottle of Whistle Pig.

 

Regards, Jim

[Radioyada]

2 minutes ago, hawkeye62 said:

What The H.. rather than What The F.. 

Just bewilderment about who would pay $585 for a bottle of Whistle Pig.

 

Regards, Jim

I have a bottle of this one, and a bottle of the previous one as well...but I did not pay anywhere near that price for either.

 

They are both delicious, and some of the best whiskey I have ever had.

[BottledInBond]

Does anyone know where the juice for this came from?  I would’ve assumed Canadian since it is a 16 year product, but everything I’ve seen including the WP website says it is “American whiskey”. So I would then assume it must be MGP? Just curious if anyone has seen on the back of the label if it says it was distilled in Indiana or not. I haven’t seen anything that lists a mashbill so there is no obvious 95/5 clue

[Harry in WashDC]

5 hours ago, BottledInBond said:

Does anyone know where the juice for this came from?  I would’ve assumed Canadian since it is a 16 year product, but everything I’ve seen including the WP website says it is “American whiskey”. So I would then assume it must be MGP? Just curious if anyone has seen on the back of the label if it says it was distilled in Indiana or not. I haven’t seen anything that lists a mashbill so there is no obvious 95/5 clue

Several non-WP sites with good credentials report that this was distilled in Canada although WP itself does not directly disclose its source.  It is the 16 year iteration of the large batch of rye whiskey WP purchased from Alberta Distillers many years ago.  I have no financial interest in the Whisky Advocate, but I do note they have a nice, albeit short, description of how "The Samurai Scientist" came about and what "koji" and umeshu finishing are.  http://whiskyadvocate.com/glenlivet-single-cask-whistlepig-boss-hog-whisky-whiskey/

 

I forget what that large batch's mash bill is, but I think we all discussed it as part of our hashing over WP's initial marketing practices.  I didn't search SB for trhose discussions but think they were in late 2014 or early 2015.  You might also search SB for "Pickerell" as I'm pretty sure more than one of us posted what Dave said at tastings about the whiskey in WP and BHog.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Harry in WashDC

[BottledInBond]

3 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

Several non-WP sites with good credentials report that this was distilled in Canada although WP itself does not directly disclose its source.  It is the 16 year iteration of the large batch of rye whiskey WP purchased from Alberta Distillers many years ago.  I have no financial interest in the Whisky Advocate, but I do note they have a nice, albeit short, description of how "The Samurai Scientist" came about and what "koji" and umeshu finishing are.  http://whiskyadvocate.com/glenlivet-single-cask-whistlepig-boss-hog-whisky-whiskey/

 

I forget what that large batch's mash bill is, but I think we all discussed it as part of our hashing over WP's initial marketing practices.  I didn't search SB for trhose discussions but think they were in late 2014 or early 2015.  You might also search SB for "Pickerell" as I'm pretty sure more than one of us posted what Dave said at tastings about the whiskey in WP and BHog.

See these are the things that drive me nuts about WP and some other NDPs. If it’s true that this juice is Canadian, they are totally fraudulently calling it American Whiskey on their own website, currently 

 

https://whistlepigwhiskey.com/whiskeys/boss-hog-vi-samurai-scientist/

[Paddy]

^^^^Well, technically isn't Canada in America?  I don't see the problem... 

 

[The Black Tot]

5 hours ago, Paddy said:

^^^^Well, technically isn't Canada in America?  I don't see the problem... 

 

 

I remember seeing in some dictionary somewhere about 20 years ago that Canadians were technically Americans due to the whole North America thing.

 

Personally, I don't care what they call me, so long as they call me.

[Kepler]

On 11/28/2019 at 2:22 PM, hawkeye62 said:

What The H.. rather than What The F.. 

Just bewilderment about who would pay $585 for a bottle of Whistle Pig.

 

On 11/28/2019 at 2:26 PM, Radioyada said:

I have a bottle of this one, and a bottle of the previous one as well...but I did not pay anywhere near that price for either.

 

They are both delicious, and some of the best whiskey I have ever had.

Ridiculous pricing.  Sorry, this is madness and trying to justify it just looks ridiculous.

[Radioyada]

3 hours ago, Kepler said:

 

Ridiculous pricing.  Sorry, this is madness and trying to justify it just looks ridiculous.

Let the madness continue, no matter how ridiculous it looks to anyone.

[Harry in WashDC]

20 hours ago, Paddy said:

^^^^Well, technically isn't Canada in America?  I don't see the problem... 

 

Just for fun, I pulled up the regs re: mandatory info on labels.  The regs say nothing about what constitutes an "American whisky(whiskey)".  They do say that, if you WANT to put "Canadian whisky(whiskey)" on the label, you can only do so legitimately if the spirit was distilled per Canadian law and regs but doesn't say - in THAT part of the regs - that you have to.  Of course, there are those requirements about place of distillation/bottling being mandatory, but I didn't spend much time trying to figure out how much of a Boss Hog label meets requirements and whether it lacks some required info.

 

While WP may be telling the truth with what is on its label, it may not be telling ALL of the truth.  Since I don't have a label to peruse, and since I'm retired and no longer give real legal opinions, nobody better rely on anything I just typed.  That said, I be up late tonight watching the Army v. Hawai'i game which starts at just after midnight ET tonight so I just may spend some time looking at this.

 

ASIDE - Anybody checked those old threads?  I swear we discussed this to death and decided that, yeah, WP plays/played fast and loose but that, nowadays, they just play loose.

[hawkeye62]

4 hours ago, Kepler said:

 

Ridiculous pricing.  Sorry, this is madness and trying to justify it just looks ridiculous.

At half the $585 price this one retailer is asking would be more than ridiculous, it would be asinine, especially from a company  like WP.

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by hawkeye62

[hawkeye62]

2 hours ago, Harry in WashDC said:

Just for fun, I pulled up the regs re: mandatory info on labels.  The regs say nothing about what constitutes an "American whisky(whiskey)".  They do say that, if you WANT to put "Canadian whisky(whiskey)" on the label, you can only do so legitimately if the spirit was distilled per Canadian law and regs but doesn't say - in THAT part of the regs - that you have to.  Of course, there are those requirements about place of distillation/bottling being mandatory, but I didn't spend much time trying to figure out how much of a Boss Hog label meets requirements and whether it lacks some required info.

 

While WP may be telling the truth with what is on its label, it may not be telling ALL of the truth.  Since I don't have a label to peruse, and since I'm retired and no longer give real legal opinions, nobody better rely on anything I just typed.  That said, I be up late tonight watching the Army v. Hawai'i game which starts at just after midnight ET tonight so I just may spend some time looking at this.

 

ASIDE - Anybody checked those old threads?  I swear we discussed this to death and decided that, yeah, WP plays/played fast and loose but that, nowadays, they just play loose.

"Loose" or "fast and loose", why would anyone believe what WP says about anything? I tried an $80 bottle of WP once. I thought is was a typical Canadian whiskey, no malt, just enzymes and distilled to no taste, JMO.

 

Jim

[Harry in WashDC]

Folks - here's a LONG discussion of TTB advert req'ts per the WP BH label discussed above.  I haven't seen one, so I based my remarks on what others told me.  MODS, if this should go somewhere else OR you have other issues, is OK with me to do what you do best.

 

The information below paraphrases or summarizes information contained in the official publication of the Alcohol & Tobacco Tax & Trade Bureau, Department of the Treasury titled, “The Beverage Manual (BAM)” subtitled, “Basic Mandatory Labeling Information for Distilled Spirits, Vol. 2 (TTB P 5110.7 04/2007)”.  Accessed most recently 12/2/2019 at https://www.ttb.gov/distilled-spirits/beverage-alcohol-manual and parentheticals appear in the original.

 

Disclaimers – (1) The remarks below are paraphrases and summaries of information in the BAM which itself is based on, but is not as complete as, the Federal Regulations re: labeling of distilled spirits appearing in Title 27 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations  in Part 5 “Labeling and Advertising of Distilled Spirits”, especially Subpart D “Labeling Requirements for Distilled Spirits” (27 CFR Part 5, Subpart D).  (2) Because the discussion prompting this-here comment focused primarily on “origin” or “provenance” labeling issues and not on alcohol or age disclosure requirements, I have not included much about those latter requirements.  (3) I have never been able to find Vol. 1 of the BAM on that website – or anywhere else.  (4) While I have endeavored to be accurate, I did not exercise the due diligence I would have for a formal legal opinion; do not rely on my remarks but do not hesitate to share them with your own legal counsel as desired.

 

BAM Chapter 1 – Mandatory Label Information.  This chapter sets out multiple requirements, but only the first five (5) address issues raised in our discussion of the WP BH label. 

 

-- (1) Brand Name.  Subject to size and typeface parameters, the label must display the Brand Name, the alcohol content as a % ABV, and the Name and Address.  The brand name cannot misrepresent or mislead.  For example (and this is my example), the brand name of a whiskey distilled and bottled in Kentucky cannot be called “Old Made in California”.  I would suppose that “Old Maid of California” might get some criticism, too.

 

     HOW this applies to our discussion – The WP BH label uses the somewhat overly broad term “American” when describing the whiskey inside.  Nevertheless, I’d argue that it is not misleading; after all, the term “America” covers everything from Baffin Bay to Patagonia.  Imprecise?  Yup.

 

-- (2) Class and Type of Spirit.  BAM Ch. 4 has specific information about Class and Type.  Suffice to say – if you want to call a spirit “whisky” (or whiskey – let’s not go THERE), it must meet the definition of “whisky”.  TO WIT – “Spirits distilled from a fermented mash of grain at less than 95% alcohol by volume (190 proof) having the taste, aroma and characteristics generally attributed to whisky and bottled at not less than 40% alcohol by volume (80 proof)”.  BAM Ch. 4, p.2.  Hence, even if made in Canada or even elsewhere in THE AMERICAS or even JAPAN, it can be labeled “whisky” if it meets that definition.  BUT, it cannot be called “Canadian Whisky” unless it meets the definition of “whisky” AND also was manufactured in Canada in compliance with Canadian law to be called “Canadian Whisky”.  BAM Ch. 4, p.5.  I also could find no place that REQUIRES a label to say “Canadian Whisky” even if it is made there and meets the regulatory definition.

 

     HOW this applies to our discussion – I could find no statutory or regulatory definition of “American whisky”.  I'm pretty sure Canada is in one of the two Americas just like the US of A is (are?).

 

-- (3) Alcohol Content (per BAM Ch.1, p.2) MUST be displayed as a % ABV but may ADDITIONALLY be displayed as degrees proof provided the proof and ABV are separated AND proof is no larger than ABV.  It is NOT ok to put ABV and Proof so close together that someone with bad eyes reads the proof as the ABV.  HOW this applies – it doesn’t; I put it here because I always wondered why both proof and % ABV appear.

 

-- (4) Name and Address.  While BAM Ch. 5 has some additional requirements (basically, the business address instead of the bottling plant address can be used), BAM Ch. 1 at page 4 sets out most of the label requirements.  Ch. 1 has separate requirements for “domestic distilled spirits” and for “imported distilled spirits”.  For “domestic distilled spirits”, the name and address of the Bottler OR Packer OR Filler (pick one) AND/OR the Distiller OR Blender OR Maker OR Preparer OR Manufacturer OR Producer (again, pick one) must appear.  NOTE:  This could be read so that the requirement is met EVEN IF the name and address of only ONE of those nine things appears.   This part of the BAM also notes, however, that, for spirits bottled AFTER importation, [begin BAM quote]

 

 “. . . (t)he name and address of the importer and/or bottler, packer or filler must appear on the label preceded by an appropriate explanatory phrase such as “BOTTLED BY,” “IMPORTED AND BOTTLED BY,” “IMPORTED BY AND BOTTLED FOR” or “IMPORTED BY ___________ AND BOTTLED BY ___________”
NOTE: When spirits are bottled in the U.S., it must be indicated by the required preceding explanatory phrase, e.g., “IMPORTED BY ABC IMPORTS AND BOTTLED BY XYZ SPIRITS COMPANY” [end BAM quote.]

HOW this applies – WP was the importer as well as being the bottler.  Hence, it could argue that it satisfies this requirement (4) if it uses “bottled by” instead of one of the more precise phrases.  After all, “or” allows us to (pick one).

-- (5) BUT WAIT!  BAM Ch.1 at page 6 has a SIXTH requirement - “Country of Origin” - which says that the labels on all imported spirits, whether bottled “there” or in the US of A, must have a statement in this format: “Product of [insert name of country where the spirits were produced here]” on the label.

 

HOW this applies – While the applicable Federal Regs, cited above, define “produced at” for purposes of entry/exit proofs, they do NOT define “Product of” or “produced” for purposes of "where was this made?".  If “produced” means “distilled” or manufactured/assembled/created (pick one), then the label should have “Product of Canada” on it.  If, however, (and with just a bit of tongue in cheek because I have heard lawyers make this kind of argument without turning red or laughing out loud), one wants to argue (when called out) that “product of” or “produced by” should include ALSO the entity adding significant value to a raw material (to include aging, blending, marketing, and taking the raw material from a basic thing to a finished PRODUCT!!!!), well, then, perhaps the label is just "imprecise" and thus is at most a slight bit out of compliance.

 

EDIT - Was going to do this while watching Army vs. Hawai'i VERY early Sunday AM.  Bad news is Army lost.  Good news is I fell asleep halfway through the first quarter.  THAT's why this is late getting posted.

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Harry in WashDC

[Rick M.]

Insane pricing.  I recently tasted the new Alberta Premium Cask Strength (65.1% abv) rye at a spirits festival.  It’s terrific and only $65 Canadian (our dollar is worth 75 cents US).  It’s  not clear if this will be a one-off or a regular release and it’s just being rolled out across Canada..  I know what I’ll be buying.

[JoeTerp]

On 11/29/2019 at 1:29 PM, BottledInBond said:

Does anyone know where the juice for this came from?  I would’ve assumed Canadian since it is a 16 year product, but everything I’ve seen including the WP website says it is “American whiskey”. So I would then assume it must be MGP? Just curious if anyone has seen on the back of the label if it says it was distilled in Indiana or not. I haven’t seen anything that lists a mashbill so there is no obvious 95/5 clue

I know that the 10 year old and Single Barrel Store picks are Alberta (although there have been some store picks of MGP in the past too and those still had the 100% rye on the label which is clearly false).  I know the 12 year Old World product uses MGP distillate and I thought the Boss Hog releases used MGP distillate too.

[The Black Tot]

On 12/2/2019 at 6:45 PM, Harry in WashDC said:

Folks - here's a LONG discussion of TTB advert req'ts per the WP BH label discussed above.  I haven't seen one, so I based my remarks on what others told me.  MODS, if this should go somewhere else OR you have other issues, is OK with me to do what you do best.

I salute your efforts, but after Tito's Vodka won the case allowing themselves to keep being called "Hand Made", I have given up hope of legal redress for misleading labeling.

 

May things change for the better.

[Marekv8]

Tried the Samurai Scientist last night at WhiskyFest. Palate fatigue aside, it was a standout pour— to the point where I wished I hadn’t tried it at all. Problem with the new price point is that it’s head to head with significant Scotch. 

[MJWP]

On 11/28/2019 at 1:05 PM, hawkeye62 said:

WTH???

 

WhistlePig The Boss Hog The Samurai Scientist Single Barrel Rye Whiskey

$ 585

The Boss Hog Edition 六 is the first American Whiskey finished using Japanese Umeshu, the result of a true collaboration between WhistlePig and Kitaya brewery on Japan’s Kyushu island.

This well-aged Straight Rye Whiskey was created using koji fermentation. Each bottle is adorned with The Samurai Scientist – Jōkichi Takamine – who pioneered koji fermentation in the American whisky industry over a century ago.

Each bottle barrel is bottled at strength, between 120 – 122 proof.

Sooo overpriced man ...jeez . That juice is made up here in Canada ....

[LCWoody]

On 12/10/2019 at 6:33 PM, MJWP said:

Sooo overpriced man ...jeez . That juice is made up here in Canada ....

But how many "Samurai Scientist" are in Canada...…. Think about it....