Ok, a noob question or seven.

[Wrangler]

Now, as usual, I'm late to the party once again! 

What I mean is, as Bourbon has been big for 15+ years now and I get it, many would argue that it has always been big BUT since all the hipsters and such have made it cool it has been more "visible" to me.  So I got interested and here I am.  I have questions.

First off, for you true Bourbon lovers/historians, has Bourbon always been treated like wine?  What I mean is, did people way back in the day sit around pontificating about all the flavors and nuances?  Or did they just slug it down w/o a thought?  My guess is, a little of both.  But really, was it (distilling and aging Bourbon) considered an art form to be regaled or was Bourbon simply a commodity?

Next, a question for you high proof Bourbon lovers, why do you prefer higher proof Bourbons?  Is it because they are usually a single barrel or small batch, unmolested run or is it something else?  Is it something like very hot peppers where although they are hotter, they deliver a much better or more flavor?  Or are you looking to get hammered and expediency is paramount?  Lol!  I'm just trying to wrap my head around this as to date, I do not prefer higher proof Bourbon.  The only one I like so far is Knob Creek SB 9 yo and it's only 100 proof.

Now, something a bit more obscure and maybe not too easy to answer.

Let's go back about 50 years.  What was available then?  Is it the fact that all the "old" Bourbons, JB, JD, OG etc. really are the good Bourbons and we probably didn't need ten thousand (yes, this is hyperbole) more distillers and brands to fill our Bourbon needs?  How many new Bourbons and distillers have come along since then?  And I get it, most of it is BS story telling aka marketing and many of the favorites are from the same distiller and hotly contested against one another.  Lol!  What was it that suddenly, as I have observed, made Bourbon a big deal in the last few years?  Is it all Maker's Mark's fault?  Damn them for making such a delicious Bourbon?  Or was it the Mad Men series with all their Bourbon and cigarettes?  

These are simple musings and are not meant to offend or waste bandwidth so I guess I've got some homework to do.

[CardsandBourbon]

There has always been a "hardcore" group that drank bourbon even when it wasn't "cool" to do so.  I've never been one to pontificate about bourbon, but when I'm asked about different mash bills, taste profiles, etc. I will answer the questions.  I'm much more apt to pontificate when I'm talking about wine, which I also enjoy, mainly though to provide information in response to questions. 

 

Bourbon started out as a commodity as it was a way to take excess crops and turn it into something that had value instead of letting it rot in the field.  It was already firmly enough established that when it became more than a commodity it also became more of a luxury.

 

Most serious bourbon drinkers don't drink to get a buzz, they drink because they enjoy the different tastes of all the bourbons on the shelf.  With higher proof bourbons you will usually have a more complex taste profile.  That's not exclusive to higher proof bourbons but generally true.   Small batch and single barrel bourbons aren't necessarily all higher proof.  I don't know of anyone who truly enjoys bourbon who drinks it to get "hammered".  I started off drinking 80 proof bourbons and as my palate developed I found that I wanted more complex taste profiles and started up the proof ladder.  Some of my favorites are now things like Knob Creek SiB, which is 120 proof, and Stagg Jr., which usually weighs in at around 130 proof.  That being said, the Jim Beam Repeal batch is 86 proof and Elijah Craig is 94 proof and I really enjoy them too.

 

Fifty years ago JB, OGD and other older bourbons filled the need at the time.  As bourbon became more popular then of course more and more players got into the game and the distillers like Beam broadened their catalog.  It's just like with the auto.  When Henry Ford started the Model T was sufficient.  The auto became more popular and accepted and now we have Mustangs, Taurus, Edge, Explorer, F150 . . .

 

I don't think it's Maker's Mark fault, but I think they deserve a special place in the resurgence of bourbon as they, in my opinion hit a marketing home run.  They probably did more to take a decent bourbon and turn it into what it is today.  

 

Look at it this way, bourbon is a journey, not a destination.

[Richnimrod]

^^^THAT^^^ is a great answer, C&B!     

I'm not qualified to answer some of the questions posed by Wrangler (and some of the answers will be somewhat opinions, rather than facts), and Cards & Bourbon has provided excellent food for thought on much of what I might be qualified to speak upon; but, I will expound just a bit on a the high-proof question...with MY OPINIONS....

High-proof Bourbons are often (mostly?) barrel-proof, and many (most?) are non-chill-filtered, that last part (NCF) is a key, at least for me.    What I want and expect from barrel-proof Bourbons is a rich and deep experience, which is generally delivered by those extra proof points, and for sure by those that are NCF.   The 'mouthfeel' of NCF Bourbons, especially those that are above about 95-proof, is an entirely different (and better!) experience than lower-proof, chill-filtered offerings.      Another point about high-proof Bourbon (or any spirit) is that one can 'proof it down' a drop of water at a time, to whatever seems just perfect at the moment.   Nobody so far has figured out a way for private citizen Bourbon drinkers to proof any pour UP... so there's that, too.

[Harry in WashDC]

About the only thing I'd add is that SB's "Search" does let you pull up posts from up to 20 years ago. IF you play around with "words", some early posts of real interest float to the top.  The History topic under "Forums/Bourbon Discussion" also contains info on the bourbon phenomenon.  When I was new to SB, on nights I could not sleep, I'd pour a couple of ounces of a bourbon I was NOT real happy with and add a couple cubes - thus guaranteeing it would last through the session - and I'd pull up the History (instead of watching HBO or TCM) and start reading threads at random.  Finally, check out the SB threads talking about bourbon books.  Some of those authors used to post on SB a lot, and a few still show up from time to time if only to browse, or so I suppose based on entries on their own blogs.  One such, Chuck Cowdery, has written several books on bourbon and its history, and his eponymous blog (meaning he named it after himself) has articles dating from 2007 covering many bourbon things (and a few nonbourbon things) and is "chuck" full (hahahaha) of historical notes.  Mike Veach is another bourbon book person, and he was the Bourbon Historian for the Filson Historical Society, Louisville, KY, which specializes in Kentucky history (and has a GREAT website of its own).  His blog is also full of articles on bourbon history.

 

Happy reading.  And sipping late into the night.

 

EDIT - Apologies to you other authors on SB.  I meant no slight; Chuck and Mike is where I started building my library.  You are in it, too, because of them.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Harry in WashDC

[Wrangler]

Great answers, all!  Harry, I'll look into those writings.

[0895]

9 hours ago, CardsandBourbon said:

Most serious bourbon drinkers don't drink to get a buzz

Depends on how my day at work went...

[BottledInBond]

@Wrangler the thing I always tell people is side by side (preferably blind) tells the truth. With the high proof topic, almost every distillery sells different versions of similar products at different proof levels. Try some of these side by side and see what you think. Try them with water/ice/in cocktails side by side as well. Try that Knob Creek 100 proof you like next to a KC single barrel 120. Try regular Old Grand Dad next to the BIB and then the 117. Try Weller Special Reserve next to Weller Antique 107.  Try Wild Turkey 81 next to 101. Maybe you always like the lower proof option in all of these comparisons and if so, good for you. There is a reason the make and sell them all, plus, you won’t suffer from the FOMO associated with trying to track down every high proof release. There’s a lot of talk on this site of the elusive “bourbon zen”. While there isn’t an official definition of bourbon zen, it certainly involves finding what you enjoy and not worrying about the rest, or what other people say you should like. Cheers

[Wrangler]

16 minutes ago, BottledInBond said:

@Wrangler the thing I always tell people is side by side (preferably blind) tells the truth. With the high proof topic, almost every distillery sells different versions of similar products at different proof levels. Try some of these side by side and see what you think. Try them with water/ice/in cocktails side by side as well. Try that Knob Creek 100 proof you like next to a KC single barrel 120. Try regular Old Grand Dad next to the BIB and then the 117. Try Weller Special Reserve next to Weller Antique 107.  Try Wild Turkey 81 next to 101. Maybe you always like the lower proof option in all of these comparisons and if so, good for you. There is a reason the make and sell them all, plus, you won’t suffer from the FOMO associated with trying to track down every high proof release. There’s a lot of talk on this site of the elusive “bourbon zen”. While there isn’t an official definition of bourbon zen, it certainly involves finding what you enjoy and not worrying about the rest, or what other people say you should like. Cheers

Excellent advice!  As I am new, I'll have to admit that I'm a bit "caught up" with it right now.  Surely, that will pass.  ; )

Something odd happened last night after having a couple of Evan Williams black label pours, I realized that I was really having trouble nosing and tasting it as I remember it from just a few days ago.  So what I did was pour myself something that I knew I liked as a sort of a control sample, Larceny.  To put it simply, I was underwhelmed with one of my favorite Bourbons, Larceny!!  Ok, now I'm upset as I'm not sure what has happened now.

So I decide to go out on a limb.  I pour myself some of the dreaded WT Rare Breed!  I found it to be quite pleasant and not at all what I thought it was just a couple of days ago when I first tried it.  Was it still stout?  Yes but much better!

So, it seems my taste buds and olfactory senses are as fickle as can be!!

[BottledInBond]

2 hours ago, Wrangler said:

Excellent advice!  As I am new, I'll have to admit that I'm a bit "caught up" with it right now.  Surely, that will pass.  ; )

Something odd happened last night after having a couple of Evan Williams black label pours, I realized that I was really having trouble nosing and tasting it as I remember it from just a few days ago.  So what I did was pour myself something that I knew I liked as a sort of a control sample, Larceny.  To put it simply, I was underwhelmed with one of my favorite Bourbons, Larceny!!  Ok, now I'm upset as I'm not sure what has happened now.

So I decide to go out on a limb.  I pour myself some of the dreaded WT Rare Breed!  I found it to be quite pleasant and not at all what I thought it was just a couple of days ago when I first tried it.  Was it still stout?  Yes but much better!

So, it seems my taste buds and olfactory senses are as fickle as can be!!

If it’s available in your area try the Evan Williams Bottled In Bond next to the EW Black. Those types of comparisons really isolate what you like better/worse when there are less different variables involved. 
 

Plenty of love for Rare Breed around here. WT101 is quite good in it’s own right and a tremendous value these days. But if you like Rare Breed, or WT101, I have a feeling that if you stepped down in proof to WT81 going forward you might start thinking it tastes watered down..... which it is of course. 
 

 

[Cornmuse]

@Wranger you've had some really great responses here.  I can't, nor will I try, to out do the expertise shared so far.  I'll only add this.  Many bourbons are nearly identical except for "proof" or the amount of water added.  Example EW black and BiB.  While the Black might not be perfectly 4 years old, it's going to have a lot of that in there.  So, sometime a higher proof bourbon is a better choice because it provides versatility.  EW Black isn't going to stand up to ice like Bib will.  And it will likely get lost in a cocktail like a Boulevardier, where bitter Campari and rich Vermouth compete for attention from  your taste buds.  I higher proof allows me to choose what proof I'll drink at that moment - neat, with a little water, with soda, or in a cocktail.  Think of it as buying a concentrated liquid, add water till you get to your proof.

[Ace1943]

I keep notes on my tastings of bourbon and rye. One of the things that has become apparent is that tasting is a subjective experience. People change day to day. I have found that something that gave me goosebumps because it was so wonderful a week ago may come off sharp and unattractive on a different day. The whiskey didn't change. I did. This has caused me to be kind when something doesn't present well and give it another chance.

[fishnbowljoe]

18 minutes ago, Ace1943 said:

I keep notes on my tastings of bourbon and rye. One of the things that has become apparent is that tasting is a subjective experience. People change day to day. I have found that something that gave me goosebumps because it was so wonderful a week ago may come off sharp and unattractive on a different day. The whiskey didn't change. I did. This has caused me to be kind when something doesn't present well and give it another chance.

Excellent post Ace! Kudos to ya’. FWIW, I’ve been there done that multiple times. Again, great post.  

 

Biba! Joe

[smokinjoe]

34 minutes ago, Ace1943 said:

I keep notes on my tastings of bourbon and rye. One of the things that has become apparent is that tasting is a subjective experience. People change day to day. I have found that something that gave me goosebumps because it was so wonderful a week ago may come off sharp and unattractive on a different day. The whiskey didn't change. I did. This has caused me to be kind when something doesn't present well and give it another chance.

As an “under 3ish year open with decent fill” bottle air-time denier, I approve this message.  

[mbroo5880i]

I drink to relax.  I enjoy both higher and "lower" proof bourbons.  It is about flavor.  Complexity and flavor can come in variety proofs.  I find most higher proof bourbons are also non-chill filtered which improves mouthfeel and flavor.  Some nights I drink more but not to get drunk but to relax more and to enjoy the experience.  The old this tastes good, the breeze feels good, I think I will relax a little longer scenario.  Other nights I drink less just to get the flavor and to relax a little.  Other nights I don't drink because my wife is working my *** off and I have to focus.

 

@Ace1943 nailed it.  Some nights old favorites don't hit the spot, other nights they seem stellar.  Bad whiskey is bad whiskey.  I am talking to you "most craft bourbon."  But, good whiskey doesn't yo-yo back and forth.  It is normally our palate that is off.  I also try to give something I didn't enjoy a second chance just to make sure it wasn't my impression on a certain day.  I have found some things that just aren't in my wheelhouse.  Mr. Dickel, I am talking to you.  No problem, plenty of other options.

 

 

[JT3NSB]

next will be the waiting in line for allocated bourbons, VIP rewards lists, fall raffles for LE’s AND just wait until you graduate to chasing dusties...!  Welcome to the rabbit hole!   Finally, bourbon zen will be achieved as you cruise into a space of having experienced all of that and settling into your groove.   Most importantly, drink what you buy and share with friends when you can.  ✌

[Wrangler]

3 hours ago, Ace1943 said:

I keep notes on my tastings of bourbon and rye. One of the things that has become apparent is that tasting is a subjective experience. People change day to day. I have found that something that gave me goosebumps because it was so wonderful a week ago may come off sharp and unattractive on a different day. The whiskey didn't change. I did. This has caused me to be kind when something doesn't present well and give it another chance.

I need to start doing this.

[PaulO]

If you are going to taste different things in one session - order matters.  Plan it out.  There are bottles like Jack Daniel's Single Barrel that should be the last pour.  I mean that in a good way.  Anything with higher proof, a lot of flavor, or sweetness will desensitize your palate to the nuances of lower proof more delicate whiskey.

Alcohol itself numbs the mouth.  Tasting whiskies is different than wine tasting or beer.  You have a more limited window of opportunity.  If you really want to taste something (like something new to you) try it first.

Also, we all have off days.  Things don't taste right.  We can be affected by the food we eat, seasonal allergies, environment, emotions, lots of variables.

[fosmith]

Another good idea is to find a bar that has a good selection of allocated (and non allocated) bourbons and try bottles that are hard to find or expensive to buy.  That way you can see if you like something without dropping a lot of money on a whole bottle.  A couple of years ago, I went to a bar and did a couple of SBSs (side by sides) of Weller 12 and Van Winkle Lot B, Weller Antique 107 and Van Winkle 10yr.  It was eye opening.  The Van Winkles were better than the Wellers but only marginally so.  Not enough to justify the large difference in price, IMO.  Same applies to George T. Stagg and Stagg Jr.  GTS is better, no doubt, but not enough to justify chasing, waiting in line or paying $500 for a bottle. 

[BigSkyDrams]

On the high proof question, I will answer for myself that the main reason I enjoy them -- somewhat ironically perhaps -- is that they hold up well to dilution.  As I think back, the last barrel proof offerings that I really, really enjoyed neat were a George T. Stagg and William Laurue Weller from a few years ago, but even then, after a while I would tend to add a few drops of water and often found that opened them up nicely.  Nevertheless, I still buy plenty of bourbons above 110 proof, but once they are at that level (or even lower), I will typically pour them over a big ice cube.  You may ask, then, why don't I just go with a lower proof offering from the outset and enjoy it neat?  Well, sometimes I do.  I do blind tastings and side by sides, and all sorts of other methods on occasion to vary the experience, but the higher-proof over a big cube method is probably my favorite way to just unwind and savor a fine spirit.  What others mentioned above is certainly true for me as well: my palate changes from day to day, as does my mood, and the occasion/circumstances in which I am drinking.  In that regard, there is a significant difference to me between when I am "tasting" whiskey and "drinking" whiskey, the former being a more cerebral and thoughtful process, and the latter being more relaxed, almost meditative experience where I don't have to think, but instead just let the feel of it (both with respect to my senses and the intoxicating effect) take over.    When drinking that way, my favorite aspect of the high-proof over ice-block approach is that it is an evolving experience where the first few sips are still quite close to the proof on the bottle, but a half hour later there is still enough body and flavor despite the dilution that it still resonates as a good bourbon -- albeit with different flavors and sensations than when I started -- and not a weak and watered down shadow of itself.  For general health reasons, I try to only drink whiskey on Fridays and Saturdays (though I sometimes end up having a pour or two on a Sunday afternoon), and keep completely dry on the weekdays, so the aforementioned method also helps keep me honest where I can usually just use a single pour (though quite a bit larger than a standard/bar pour) on an evening and get to my desired level of "buzzed", rather than going down the rabbit hole of going back to the cabinet and refilling my glass several times.  

Edited July 23, 2020 by BigSkyDrams
*typo correction

[Wrangler]

14 hours ago, BigSkyDrams said:

On the high proof question, I will answer for myself that the main reason I enjoy them -- somewhat ironically perhaps -- is that they hold up well to dilution.  As I think back, the last barrel proof offerings that I really, really enjoyed neat were a George T. Stagg and William Laurue Weller from a few years ago, but even then, after a while I would tend to add a few drops of water and often found that opened them up nicely.  Nevertheless, I still buy plenty of bourbons above 110 proof, but once they are at that level (or even lower), I will typically pour them over a big ice cube.  You may ask, then, why don't I just go with a lower proof offering from the outset and enjoy it neat?  Well, sometimes I do.  I do blind tastings and side by sides, and all sorts of other methods on occasion to vary the experience, but the higher-proof over a big cube method is probably my favorite way to just unwind and savor a fine spirit.  What others mentioned above is certainly true for me as well: my palate changes from day to day, as does my mood, and the occasion/circumstances in which I am drinking.  In that regard, there is a significant difference to me between when I am "tasting" whiskey and "drinking" whiskey, the former being a more cerebral and thoughtful process, and the latter being more relaxed, almost meditative experience where I don't have to think, but instead just let the feel of it (both with respect to my senses and the intoxicating effect) take over.    When drinking that way, my favorite aspect of the high-proof over ice-block approach is that it is an evolving experience where the first few sips are still quite close to the proof on the bottle, but a half hour later there is still enough body and flavor despite the dilution that it still resonates as a good bourbon -- albeit with different flavors and sensations than when I started -- and not a weak and watered down shadow of itself.  For general health reasons, I try to only drink whiskey on Fridays and Saturdays (though I sometimes end up having a pour or two on a Sunday afternoon), and keep completely dry on the weekdays, so the aforementioned method also helps keep me honest where I can usually just use a single pour (though quite a bit larger than a standard/bar pour) on an evening and get to my desired level of "buzzed", rather than going down the rabbit hole of going back to the cabinet and refilling my glass several times.  

As I read this, I was revisiting the Rare Breed. I'm starting to like it now as I've hurdled the OMG part. I get what you're saying. 

[WhiskeyBlender]

On 7/21/2020 at 2:19 PM, Harry in WashDC said:

About the only thing I'd add is that SB's "Search" does let you pull up posts from up to 20 years ago. IF you play around with "words", some early posts of real interest float to the top.  The History topic under "Forums/Bourbon Discussion" also contains info on the bourbon phenomenon.  When I was new to SB, on nights I could not sleep, I'd pour a couple of ounces of a bourbon I was NOT real happy with and add a couple cubes - thus guaranteeing it would last through the session - and I'd pull up the History (instead of watching HBO or TCM) and start reading threads at random.  Finally, check out the SB threads talking about bourbon books.  Some of those authors used to post on SB a lot, and a few still show up from time to time if only to browse, or so I suppose based on entries on their own blogs.  One such, Chuck Cowdery, has written several books on bourbon and its history, and his eponymous blog (meaning he named it after himself) has articles dating from 2007 covering many bourbon things (and a few nonbourbon things) and is "chuck" full (hahahaha) of historical notes.  Mike Veach is another bourbon book person, and he was the Bourbon Historian for the Filson Historical Society, Louisville, KY, which specializes in Kentucky history (and has a GREAT website of its own).  His blog is also full of articles on bourbon history.

 

Happy reading.  And sipping late into the night.

 

EDIT - Apologies to you other authors on SB.  I meant no slight; Chuck and Mike is where I started building my library.  You are in it, too, because of them.

Here here on this, @Harry in WashDC! I used to spend hours upon hours going back through those old SB dialogue threads with Chuck and Mike. @Wrangler, Harry is absolutely right that these fellas are a great place to start. I'm not sure if he was ever on the forum, but "The Bourbon Professor" Bernie Lubbers is also an excellent resource. He's quite entertaining too boot. 

 

Cheers,

Nancy

[GeeTen]

11 hours ago, WhiskeyBlender said:

 I'm not sure if he was ever on the forum, but "The Bourbon Professor" Bernie Lubbers is also an excellent resource. He's quite entertaining too boot. 

 

Cheers,

Nancy

 

I hear tell that Bernie can sing a tune or three as well!   

 

[flahute]

4 hours ago, GeeTen said:

 

I hear tell that Bernie can sing a tune or three as well!   

 

I've seen it in person and can confirm that he does so very well! He has a great song that basically uses the HH lineup to tell the history of bourbon.

[Harry in WashDC]

4 hours ago, GeeTen said:

 

I hear tell that Bernie can sing a tune or three as well!   

 

I got to speak with him one-on-one  during a Whisky Fest a couple years ago - he was entertaining, personable, knowledgeable, friendly, ready-to-please.  I never felt like I was being hustled, sold something, or lectured to.  He let the people in the HH booth do that . . . while I sipped on their EC23.        EDIT - preaching to the choir, they were.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Harry in WashDC

[IamMatt]

On 7/21/2020 at 7:31 AM, Wrangler said:

Next, a question for you high proof Bourbon lovers, why do you prefer higher proof Bourbons?  Is it because they are usually a single barrel or small batch, unmolested run or is it something else?  Is it something like very hot peppers where although they are hotter, they deliver a much better or more flavor?  Or are you looking to get hammered and expediency is paramount?  Lol!  I'm just trying to wrap my head around this as to date, I do not prefer higher proof Bourbon.  The only one I like so far is Knob Creek SB 9 yo and it's only 100 proof.

Let me offer an analogy.   Think of bourbon when it comes out of the barrel ("full proof," "barrel proof," etc.) like a pot of marinara sauce with plenty of garlic (alcohol).  If you water it down to lower the garlic taste, you water down all the other tastes at the same time.  If you could eat it without being bothered by the garlic, you could enjoy the full flavor of the marinara.  That's how it is with bourbon.

 

I have learned to drink high-proof bourbon without tasting the alcohol too much.  Not sure how, though part of it is controlling how I breathe when I drink.  It's like the juice has two layers when it goes into my mouth: a flavor layer and an alcohol layer, and I can suppress the alcohol layer and savor the flavor layer.

 

 Elijah Craig Small Batch at 94 proof is good, but Elijah Craig Barrel Proof at 136 proof is SO MUCH more flavorful.  Last night I added some water to a glass of Old Forester 1920 (115 proof) and it tasted like Old Forester Signature (100 proof):  15% less alcohol but also 15% less flavor.

 

So I would say that we "proof hounds" drink high proof juice IN SPITE of the high alcohol content, not BECAUSE of it.   We are really "flavor hounds."

 

BTW, you could do a lot worse than Knob Creek.  Once you are comfortable with it,  try some Knob Creek 120 proof.  I think it drinks lower than its proof.   If you like sweeter bourbons, try the Old Forester 100 proof, and eventually you might want to move up to the 115 proof 1920 for the extra flavor.   I owe a great debt to the Jim Beam distillery because before going to Kentucky last October, I didn't like bourbons over about 86-90 proof.  Then on the distillery tour we sampled KC in 100 proof and 120 proof expressions and I was converted.