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Cincinnati Chili


Gillman
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I'd like some information.

I am assuming this dish goes well with bourbon and that this justifies its inclusion in this section of the forum. (How could chili NOT go well with bourbon?).

My query is prompted by the Cincinnati chapter in Calvin Trillin's classic American Fried, a circa-1970 gambol down the byways and highways of American regional cooking, mostly of the fast food or communal eating category.

In the book he lauds Cincinnati chili. He says it was popularised in the 1920's and is typically served by Greek-American restaurateurs. He says "a bowl of plain" is chili on spaghetti. If you want it "three ways", cheese is added. Four ways is with onions. Five is with beans, son. He says Cincinnatans stop there but he was told of establishments in Covington, KY (across the river) that make a 6- and 7-way version, adding things like eggs and franks.

He said each neighborhood has a chili parlour and each one is the best!

My questions: does this chili specialty still exist there?

If so are there still neighborhood chili joints?

Is it still called "bowl of plain" where nothing is added and three-way, four-way, etc. where other stuff is put on?

Is Covington still trying to trump the classic Cinnci version?

Finally: who makes the best chili in Cinnci?

Gary

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I was just in Cincy airport and in the terminal there was a restaurant that sold nothing but Chili, including the 5 way.

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As a native Cincinnatian, and as someone who still visits there several times a year, even though I now live far away, I must answer this probing and vital inquiry. Yes, Cincinnati chili still exists, and yes, it is still awesome! But if you've never had it before, and you're yearning to try it, let me warn you - you must rid yourselves of all preconceptions as to what chili should be. Most people think of chili as a meaty, hearty thing, but Cincinnati chili is more like spaghetti sauce...thin and watery, with traces of weird ingredients like cinnamon and chocolate. This is not to say it's not good...on the contrary, it's great, but it's a world apart from what they call chili in places like Texas and New Mexico.

Cincinnati chili is typically eaten in one of two ways: on top of a small hot dog in a bun, where it's called a "coney" (or a "chili sandwich" if you leave out the hot dog), or on top of spaghetti, and this is where the nomenclature comes in. The typical way of eating Cincinnati chili is the "three way". This is chili on top of spaghetti, topped with cheese. And if it's classic Cincinnati chili, the cheese is Velveeta, or something close to it. A four-way is a three way with either beans or onions added (you need to specify which, as in "I'll take a four-way with beans...and an Alka Seltzer"), and a five-way is chili, spaghetti, cheese, onions, and beans. The five way is an awesome meal, but I wouldn't recommend it right before a big date. And a "bowl of plain" is just that, a bowl of the chili alone, no spaghetti, no nothing, just a soupy bowl of chili. It's good, but it's rare for people to order that. As I said the chili is thin, like a soup, so it's best enjoyed when it's ladeled onto something, like spaghetti or a hot dog and bun.

As for chili parlors, there are two big chili chains in Cincinnati: Skyline Chili and Gold Star Chili. Both have their fans, but I am very partial to Skyline. There is a smaller chain called Empress Chili, which is also good. As for neighborhood chili parlors, yes, there used to be lots of them, but like so many other mom-and-pop businesses in this era of WalMart, many have disappeared. Still, the few that remain are well worth searching out.

And as for Cincinnati chili being good with bourbon, well, I tend to think not. It's a heavy, spicy meal, and while delicious, a beer is probably more appropriate. Sorry. But as one of the few remaining truly unique local cuisines in this country, I must say that if you're ever in Cincinnati, it's well worth searching out the nearest Skyline and ordering that five-way! You won't regret it...at least for an hour.

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Excellent, many thanks!

All other opinions received with interest.

Has Covington given up its claims in the matter of chili a la Cinncinati..?

Gary

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Thanks Joe, I had no idea his pages covered this.

The person who introduced chili in the city in the 1920's is named in Trillin's book - I can't recall the exact spelling but Trillin says he was from Macedonia.

The use of cinammon, allspice and chocolate as seasonings is interesting. I wouldn't discount a Mexican origin since chocolate is used as a seasoning in some dishes there (notably mole sauce for poultry) - and famously is of new world origin. I am not sure about cinammon and allspice but these may well have been brought by Spaniards to Mexico. In the 1500's and 1600's the use of these spices was widespread in parts of Europe as a holdover from medieval cookery. E.g. the Quebec "tourtiere", a ground meat pie with a topping of flaky pastry, uses cinammon and allspice and similar flavourings (nutmeg, etc.) and surely dates back to the 1600's. Although, these spices are also characteristic of some Greek cuisines, no question.

Probably the dish was an amalgam of influences, in typical American fashion...

Gary

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I can't recall the exact spelling but Trillin says he was from Macedonia.

Gary

Also interesting because Macedonia is between Cleveland and Akron and last year got it's first Skyline.

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Dale, I forgot you are (now) an Ohioan!

Do you like this kind of chili, can you get it in Akron?

Gary

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I do have a Skyline in the area.

It is an acquired taste, which I have not obtained. I am familiar with the Mexican dishes using chocolate, etc and enjoy them, but this is different.

A co-worker, from Cincy, goes every Tuesday for lunch. He always asks if anyone else want to go, but never gets takers. I pass the shop up on the way home and although it is not very easy to get to (back some side streets), it is visible from the highway and always seems to have a crowd. Perhaps there are a great number of Cincy transplants here. Or perhaps I misjudged the taste of the locals.

PS As quoted by the Cincy guy: "The only reason Cincinnati calls it chili is because they can't spell spaghetti." :lol:

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I went to college near Cincinnati and developed my love of Cincinnati chili there. I'm surprised to hear Empress described as a "smaller chain" because it used to be second only to Skyline. Gold Star is the relative newcomer.

There is a good thread on the topic here.

Thirty years ago they didn't go too far from Cincinnati but today there are Skylines and Gold Stars all over Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana and perhaps other states. They're in Louisville, I know. Other places, in the Cincinnati area and elsewhere (even one here in Chicago) offer what they bill as "Cincinnati Chili," but from my experience only those three chains get it right.

The origin details are somewhat murky, as I think both Skyline and Empress, which are owned by different branches of the same family, claim to have been the first.

John and Linda's recipe for the dish is very good and authentic. I have made it many times. It is also very easy.

As for Covington trying to lay claim to some innovative variations, that is news to me, but I've never spent much time in Covington.

As mentioned above, beans are available as add-ons but the devotees rarely order them. The most common orders are the three-way or the four-way with onions. When you get it in the bowl (as opposed to a coney), you get oyster crackers. Hot sauce is usually available but also is not really part of the traditional experience.

It has always been understood that both the beans and the hot sauce are offered as a kind of concession to diners who want a more traditional Tex-Mex chili.

It's always been described as Greek and there are some similar meat sauces in Greek cuisine. I don't believe there is any Mexican connection.

Cincinnati, by the way, is a great town with a lot to recommend it. Not the least is how close it is to Kentucky.

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Excellent again, thanks - looks like people have scoped this out, in writing too!

There must be some connection to Mexico or the South West, if only in the name.

I was wrong by the way in saying Trillin called a bowl of plain, chili on spaghetti, he didn't. He did refer to chili only by that term and refers too to the oyster crackers. It was Trillin who referred to Covington restaurants as innovating with eggs and franks but maybe that trend died out since the book was written. I'll go into Covington one day and check it out. I've actually tried twice to get into Covington and ended up on the bridge, in one case, and 5 miles downriver, in another case. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I need an SB-er who knows the area to come with me. Then too when you are trying to put some distance between your windshield and flying stones from passing trucks you can get distracted. :)

Trillin also talks about a place called Stenger's, the last he says of the old German workingman's bars in what used to be called (he used the past tense in 1970), "Over the Rhine". What did he eat there? A pile of mettwurst on two potato pancakes with sides of beets and pickles and other good stuff.

Does Stenger's still exist...?

Gary

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Does Stenger's still exist...?

Gary

:(

Sunday, May 02, 1999

Say so long to Stenger's

BY JIM KNIPPENBERG

The Cincinnati Enquirer

This looks to be the end of an era: After 52 years at the stove, Leo Sunderman is cooling his burners.

Sunderman owns Stenger's, the Vine Street cafe in Over-the-Rhine that's famous for its blue-plate specials and its eclectic clientele. It may be the only place in town where a tableful of CEOs sits next to a tableful of street people next to a tableful of judges next to Findlay Market shoppers doing Bloody Marys.

It's a circus, this, which Sunderman presides over with non-stop banter while slicing up sauerbraten, pot roasts and hams.

But not for long. Sunderman is selling the cafe and building with 11 apartments. It has been in his family 65 years.

“It's been a good life, but I'm ready to sit down,†he says. “I have five grandchildren and golf to play. I'm ready.â€

One more thing: Real estate agent Chris Schoonover, who has the listing, usually mails post cards with pictures of her listings. For this one, she's sending a picture of Sunderman. “He is Stenger's. The building isn't,†she says.

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Thanks Dale.

I guess all good things come to an end..

Who upholds today the traditions of old Germania in Cincinnati...?

Gary

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:bowdown: Is it any wonder, really, that SB.com is so popular?! Look it, here -- we're talking (as in, expert opinion!) about Cincinnati chili!!! See Jim for software-writing expertise, Dane for networks, Chuck for bourbon and publishing, Gary for whisk(e)y and beer history and technology, Bettye Jo for insider bourbon info, Bobby for day-lilies and Jim Beam, Cliff for trademark and internet property issues, Doug for sand-blasting, Julian for bourbon production, profile selection and marketing, Ken W. for corporate distillery info...

Well, you see my point, I trust.

Bourbon draws us here, but the sheer capacity of expertise within and among our membership surely makes this a must-visit site for almost any question. Bottom line is -- WE KNOW EVERYTHING!:bigeyes:

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Thanks Dale.

I guess all good things come to an end..

Who upholds today the traditions of old Germania in Cincinnati...?

Gary

I can't speak for Cincinnati, but I'm going to guess it's similar to here in Chicago. We've probably lost half of our German restaurants in the last 25 years, which means we only have 500 or so left.

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A few random comments on things mentioned above:

1. "Over-the-Rhine" is a neighborhood in Cincinnati that used to be a working class German area in the early 1900s. Today it is a very rough neighborhood, to put it mildly. Vine Street was starting to get gentrified a bit maybe five years ago, with a couple of art gallerys and cafes, but in recent years that seems to have faltered somewhat as the drugs and crime have pushed back. There were also some racial disturbances due to a police shooting a couple of years ago which didn't help. Too bad, because the neighborhood has some amazing architecture...old 19th century brick buildings that would be beautiful if they were renovated, but that won't happen as long as developers are afraid to even go there.

2. Cincinnati chili is of Greek origin, concocted by Greek immigrants who moved to the city. No connection to the southwest or Mexico.

3. Indeed, Empress Chili has seen better days. When I was a kid they were all over the city, but now I only know of two. Dixie Chili was another chain that used to be common, but which I think has fallen on hard times. I've never tried that one. Skyline and Gold Star are doing quite well, though.

4. Cincinnati is indeed a great town. As I mention above, there's some really great 19th century architecture if you look around for it. And Covington, right along the river, has some really wonderful buildings as well. It's funny, as soon as you go over the river it feels like you're suddenly in the south.

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It's funny, as soon as you go over the river it feels like you're suddenly in the south.

My co-worker from Cincy explained to me why the bridge is a double decker. The upper deck goes south so they can toss their shoes down to those heading north. :lol: :lol: :lol:

And lets not foget a better selection of fine bourbons on the south shore.:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

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Skyline has stores in many locations, not just Cincy: Louisville, Indy, even up in Michigan. You can even order their chili in cans online.

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When I lived in the Cincinnati area, in the early 70s, so many Kentuckians who had moved north would go home on weekends that the Brent Spence Bridge (the "double-decker" described above) would be backed-up southbound for miles on Friday afternoon/evening and the same would be repeated northbound on Sunday night. It was quite a phenomenon.

Also at that time, Cincinnati itself was "squeaky clean" and all of the vice was on the Kentucky side of the river, particularly in Newport. There was a big scandal when Cincinnati's mayor got busted for visiting a Newport prostitute. He got caught because he paid her with a personal check! The dope was none other than TV talk show host Jerry Springer.

Back to the chili, I will concede Gary's point as to the name. It probably was "borrowed" from the Tex-Mex dish. Why is probably something we'll never know. It could just as easily, and perhaps more accurately, have been called "Greek Spaghetti."

At about that same time, the early 70s, the New Yorker's food writer at the time, who just happened to be Calvin Trillin, came to Cincinnati and wrote about three things: The Maisonette, a well-known local gourmet restaurant, a road house near Oxford most notable for the full size theater organ the owner would play during dinner, and Cincinnati Chili.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well, I'm not a maven but I can now say Cincinnati chili is not a stranger.

I had it from Goldstar, one of the chains in the Cincinnati area.

I had it on the pasta without onions and beans. I used cheese but on the side, essentially as a condiment. I could see that people just mix it in but it seemed like too much.

I thought it was great, it was digestible and very tasty. The sauce had all the Greek/Near Eastern spices I'd read about such as cinnamon, oregano or basil, etc. It was lightly spicy (in heat) and did not need the hot sauce sachets that came with it although I used one.

I also ordered one of their hot dogs, these are little short ones and for this I piled on everything. Again: superb.

I thought I detected some lamb in the meat sauce. The sauce was medium thick, just perfect.

I was with others and $20 covered three chilis (two with everything) and 4 of those hot dogs. Now that's a good deal. I was very pleased with this local specialty and will revisit it at some point. I'd like to try Skyline's version which some people I met swore by.

Gary

P.S. In the end bourbon did not accompany this food, just good old water and that was fine. The bourbon came later.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Well, I'm not a maven but I can now say Cincinnati chili is not a stranger.

I had it from Goldstar, one of the chains in the Cincinnati area.

I had it on the pasta without onions and beans. I used cheese but on the side, essentially as a condiment. I could see that people just mix it in but it seemed like too much.

I thought it was great, it was digestible and very tasty. The sauce had all the Greek/Near Eastern spices I'd read about such as cinnamon, oregano or basil, etc. It was lightly spicy (in heat) and did not need the hot sauce sachets that came with it although I used one.

I also ordered one of their hot dogs, these are little short ones and for this I piled on everything. Again: superb.

I thought I detected some lamb in the meat sauce. The sauce was medium thick, just perfect.

I was with others and $20 covered three chilis (two with everything) and 4 of those hot dogs. Now that's a good deal. I was very pleased with this local specialty and will revisit it at some point. I'd like to try Skyline's version which some people I met swore by.

Gary

P.S. In the end bourbon did not accompany this food, just good old water and that was fine. The bourbon came later.

Living in the Cincy area (one of those northern KY guys) - it's a personal thing, Goldstar vs Skyline - I like both, depends on the day and who's driving as to which one I'll eat. Cheese on the side though ....? Cheese coney's are great, get a coney crate and a 12 pack, set for 2 or 3 meals. Agree probably not best with bourbon.

Next time you're in town, let me know - I can help you navigate that bridge with or without shoes.

PS - maisonette is now closed as well.

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Thanks and it's dishes like this that lend character and colour to the regional parts of the U.S. (which is all parts, really).

Now who can tell me aboput ciopinno (sp.?), the Bay Area specialty. Is that still made, where is a good place to get it?

Speaking of Bay Area and environs, thanks Jim for the cool snow flakes appearing as you open the SB site. But how come they ain't bourbon-brown? :)

Gary

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Thanks and it's dishes like this that lend character and colour to the regional parts of the U.S. (which is all parts, really).

Now who can tell me about ciopinno (sp.?), the Bay Area fish soup specialty. Is that still made, where is a good place to get it?

Speaking of Bay Area and environs, thanks Jim for the cool snow flakes appearing as you open the SB site. But how come they ain't bourbon-brown? :)

Gary

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  • 1 month later...

Since I keep kosher I can't enjoy C-Chili the way most people can, but nonetheless it is the basis for my favorite chili recipe. I used the recipe in one of The Frugal Gourmet books, use all-beef or 2/3 beef 1/3 turkey, and cut the amount of vinegar in half. As I'm partial to beans, I add half-black and half-kidney beans and cook everything until the beans are very tender.

Sometimes I'll add a shot of bourbon, but not too much - the bourbon is just to enhance the aroma of spiciness.

I serve my chili over spaghetti and prefer to wash it down with lager. It makes for a most satisfying meal.

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