Hudson Manhattan Rye Whiskey

[Gillman]

Obtained through channels. This is the third whiskey type in the American canon released by the microdistiller, Tuthilltown Spirits, of Gardiner, NY (in the Hudson Valley, near New Paltz). I haven't tried the first two releases (a young bourbon and a corn whiskey).

It is a 100% rye mash product, double distilled in pot stills.

This was aged in a small new charred oak barrel with tapered ends. The aging was only a few months but the small barrel would have accentuated the maturation. 46% abv.

The smell is of sappy wood, light smoke or char and "varsol".

It is a lovely product, better in my view than the Potrero rye (although presenting some similarities). The wood gums really add to the taste, they envelop and "present" the other elements. Beautiful example of artisanal distilling.

It will be in Chicago next week (in my room) for Tim Sousley and others to sample.

Gary

[Gillman]

Further sampling discloses again the "wood sap" taste. I have had rebarreled whiskeys - aged whiskeys that were re-aged privately in small, new charred barrels - and noted a similar taste. I wonder if the barrel type used for all these whiskeys may be influencing the taste. The taste in the case of the Hudson rye is I think salutary. It reminds me of a young bourbon, say Heaven Hill's or Ancient Age's white label, if you added a dash of Greek retsina wine to it. It would be great ice cold I think, as retsina is. I believe this Hudson whiskey is representative of some early American whiskeys.

Gary

[Sweetmeats]

"Obtained through Channels" sounds very cloak and dagger. These channels wouldn't be mail order though would it? I'd love to try some new rye.

[Gillman]

Nothing cloak and dagger about it, the whiskey was bought by yours truly from Astor Liquors on Lafayette Street, New York City, during a recent brief visit there. I said "channels" to indicate you have to be in the know how to find this stuff; now other SB-ers are.

Gothamites take note: on April 14 Tuthilltown distillers is having a tasting at Astor.

Gary

[Sweetmeats]

Cool. Now let's hope I can find some by mail order. Thanks for keeping us informed about these new ryes. I really appreciate it.

[burbankbrewer]

I've been brewing beer for 21yrs. and making wine a few. I'm really interested in Rye since trying a few. Michter's Single Barrel US1 and Sazerac 6 yo. Any thoughts on a good mash bill?

[shyster512]

Moonshiner?

[Rughi]

I've been brewing beer for 21yrs. and making wine a few. I'm really interested in Rye since trying a few. Michter's Single Barrel US1 and Sazerac 6 yo. Any thoughts on a good mash bill?

Be advised that home distilling is illegal under most circumstances. If not for that, I imagine a lot of people would give it a try. The following is from reading along with this site.

If you are qualified to do it, you could try George Washington's mashbill. IIRC it's

65% rye

30% corn

5% malted barley

or thereabouts.

It is commonly said that current ryes are "barely legal" at 51% rye. 10% malted barley is a common rule of thumb discussed amongst us armchair quarterbacks, and the remainder 39% or so would be corn.

The exact proportions of the mashbill is probably one of the less important considerations, we hear.

A search of the term "mashbill" will get you reading for the weekend.

Roger

[Rughi]

I've been brewing beer for 21yrs. and making wine a few. I'm really interested in Rye since trying a few. Michter's Single Barrel US1 and Sazerac 6 yo. Any thoughts on a good mash bill?

Welcome, Burbankbrewer

I have some thoughts on where to search on this site for interesting reading on historical and current industry practices, but maybe you'd like to introduce yourself in the "New to Straightbourbon" forum first. It's a little weird for an anonymous first poster to ask advice on something which for the general populace is illegal.

Roger

[burbankbrewer]

No, just sunshine.

[burbankbrewer]

Moonshiner?

Uh no, just sunshine.

[Rughi]

Jamie,

I'm glad of your interest. As is probably obvious, there are only a few of us on this site with actual distilling or industry experience, such as cowdery, etohchem, tdelling, jvwinkle - but the rest of us love to read and speculate.

Here are a few good links:

This one is interesting and in post 69 discusses the lack of consistency in different writings.

This one talks about fun times at Mount Vernon.

This one isn't about rye per se, but has fun speculations on the differences of wheat and rye bourbons.

Anyways, Jamie, I found all these just by typing "mashbill" into the search. There are dozens more you could easily access.

Roger

[burbankbrewer]

Thanks Roger. I've been making beer so long and wine the last 5 yrs. I find it interesting to see what flavors make it into the finnished product and how they got there. In beer, ale mostly, the malts and adjuncts really make an impact in the flavor. They say rye has a big flavor impact. I just brewed a california common and added 15% malted rye in the mashbill and it is almost done fermenting 60' for 6 days. I can't wait to see if the rye added anything interesting that might be in rye whiskey.

[Rughi]

Jamie,

I've been brewing for almost 15 years and find the frustrating thing about spirits is that an enthusiast can only be a customer, consumer or reader. So much of the speculation about what goes on in whiskey are things that people would just try for themselves, if it were beer and not illegal.

I've used malted rye before, and like oats, for me a little bit went a long way.

Roger

Hey moderators - would it be appropriate to shift posts 6 and on to a new thread?

[burbankbrewer]

It's really cost prohibitive to make your own when you can buy it relatively cheap except for high end products. Also who has 6 to 12 years to wait for it to mature? I'm not getting any younger. I'm 50 now so how many drinking days do I have left?

Perish the thought!:slappin:

[Gillman]

Are the homebrewers finding the cost of hops starting to impact their brewing schedules? I have read startling figures about spikes in prices, some stories project 6-fold increases in the cost of some varieties and the simple disappearance of some types in the market (especially some of the C hops used by the craft brewing community). Personally, I am not a fan of double IPAs and I think hops have been sometimes overused by some microbrewers, but I can appreciate a fine American Pale Ale and some other styles dependent on the abundant use of quality hops e.g., the classic Pilsener Urquel taste, reliant on Saaz I believe -I just had an Urquel brewed according to the can code only 4 weeks ago - purchased in Ontario - and it was as good as draught Urquel I tasted in Spain last week.

What's the buzz amongst the craft- and homebrewers? Is Charlie Papazian's famous injunction about relaxing and having a homebrew to be modified to worrying first about getting good hops? While large brewers will find way I think to protect their supplies (and of course on a unit basis they use less hops than craft bewers), what impact will there be on micro- and homebrewers?

Gary

[burbankbrewer]

There was a very bad draught in Australia this year reducing crops by 50%. Even some micro's there can't get local hops. I'm not sure about Europe or the U.S. crops. The impact on hops is availablility and price. But this will only effect this years crop and if nature and growers are able to it should return to normal whatever that is next year. This could cause homebrewers to reinvent some styles using different hops than usual. But we will still be able to get hops just not everything. I use to get hops for $1.25 an ounce, now it's double. But it doesn't take that much for a batch anyway. Maybe 5 ounces per 10 gals.

Grain prices are also up due to growing conditions and ethanol production so look for increases in malt beverages too. Last year I bought some Canadian malt for $20 a sack and this year it's $27. 50 So there you go. IMHO they should be making and using methanol instead. It can be made from alot of other things that don't take away valuable food resouces and land and will work just as good.

[TBoner]

As is my custom in many things, I chose at first to take the gloom-and-doom view here. Cascade hops are virtually gone, as are Centennial. Everything else is sky-high, pricewise. Styrian Goldings? Good luck. Northern Brewer? You wish. I've bunkered a few varieties, so I can continue to make American ales this year and maybe next. But the long-term outlook isn't good, with hop acreage down worldwide and other crops more cost-effective to grow. Demand, of course, is way up with the Double IPAs Gary mentioned and the growth of craft brewing (and homebrewing) in general. Indeed, had HopUnion, one of the largest hop brokers/suppliers in the world, not allocated hops to the homebrewing hobby/industry that could've sold to demanding microbreweries, thousands of jobs would've been lost at homebrew stores everywhere this year. What happens in 2008 (even if thousands of acres are planted this year, hops generally take 2-3 years to really begin producing)? As it is, my local store, generally very well-stocked, is down to mere ounces of about half of the varieties they normally carry. My "Last Gas American Pale Ale," brewed yesterday in honor of the temporary passing of hop bombs at my house, cost me $12 more than my last batch of pale ale. And Belgium and other countries will simply not be exporting their hop crops (thankfully...I'd rather Westmalle had them than me).

Gloom and doom out of the way, I'm becoming more optimistic. The shortage, much like the shortage of well-aged whiskey, is reflective of industry growth, specifically the hobby of homebrewing, and in appreciation of craft beers. That can only be good. It is also the result of reduced production that occurred following a massive hop surplus (again, as is the case with whiskey). Some suppliers were shipping 3-yo hop pellets en masse until very recently, with no reason not to. Only in the last year has awareness of an impending shortage been on the radar. Some of it may be compensated in 2008 thanks to hop growers with foresight enough to plant excess in 2007. Beyond all that, though, the challenge is now before homebrewers and craft brewers to experiment. Rather than simply packing more hops into the bottle, brewers may need to try crafting more elusive, less forceful styles (such as Belgian ales and lesser-known lager styles like Munich Helles, Dortmunder Export, etc.). Additionally, brewing with non-hop herbs may make a comeback. Scotch ale bittered with heather tips, medieval-style gruit, etc., are possibilities.

Indeed, many craft brewers who pioneered the hop extremes of the late 90s and early 2000s, such as Vinnie Cilurzo of Russian River, have been moving in this direction already, making Belgian styles, wood-aging beers, and reintroducing true sour ales to the world as Belgian brewers have either gone out of business or begun pasteurizing and sweetening their lambics and Flanders reds. So the table is set for brewers to truly do something new, and not merely try to out-lupulin each other (not that there's anything wrong with that...).

I'll miss brewing Imperial IPAs and Barleywines, but I'm hopeful that in 2009, my own hop crop (to be planted this spring) and that of the rest of the world will be ready for me to brew something tongue-numbing.

[burbankbrewer]

Grain prices are going up too but still available. I'm stocking up a 3yr. inventory of grains because there is liitle problem with storage. Hops deteriate much faster even freezing them. Hopefully they should be back to normal availabilty by next year. Thankfully there is still excellent whiskey to enjoy at avordable prices such as Rittenhouse Rye 100, Wild Turkey Rye, Sazerac Rye 6yo. and Michters Straight Rye US1, Buffalo Trace Bourbon to name a few. Whew I need a drink!