Ruby K Posted November 3, 2007 Share Posted November 3, 2007 So, moseying around the village tonight, found a bottle of Hirsch Selection American Whiskey, aged 20 years in used bourbon barrels. Not labelled AH Hirsch, but either identical lettering or lettering chosen carefully. Was listed around the same price as Pappy 20. Anyone have a bead on this either way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted November 4, 2007 Share Posted November 4, 2007 I don't specifically know what this is, but Priess Imports, the company that owns the Hirsch name, told me that while they don't intend to use A. H. Hirsch again, they are going to use the name Hirsch (without the A.H.) for other offerings. So it's clearly from them, but what it is exactly I can't say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vange Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 It's not bourbon, but American Whiskey as stated by the label. I have had it. There is a real lack of nose, but the taste is decent. I cant remember specifics, except that I was unamazed. For the $70+ I think I would leave it on the shelf. I had it in the same night as Pappy SB barrel #2 and AH Hirsch 16, NO comparison to those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sijan Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 I have also seen this at the Wine Specialist in DC. Was told by Matt (their whiskey guy) that it actually is a bourbon even though it doesn't say so on the label. Not really sure what to make of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby K Posted November 7, 2007 Author Share Posted November 7, 2007 I think the used barrels eliminates that (it being a bourbon) as a possibility. Thanks for tip, Vange, I'll save it for that WT Tribute I have a bead on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 If it legally could have been labelled bourbon it would have been. Since it isn't, you can be sure it's not, no matter what anyone tells you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sijan Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 If it legally could have been labelled bourbon it would have been. Since it isn't, you can be sure it's not, no matter what anyone tells you.That was my reaction as well. Just odd that this otherwise very knowledgeable whiskeymonger would be saying this. Wonder where he heard this or if he was just confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vange Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 It it aged in used barrels, so cant be bourbon, right?Again, uninterestingly for the price tag. Buy the Michters bourbon instead, WAY better and similar price point.DEFINITELY get Tribute over this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sijan Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Pardon my ignorance, but how do we know it was aged in used oak barrels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeluka Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Pardon my ignorance, but how do we know it was aged in used oak barrels?Malt Advocate Volume 16, Number 4 Fourth Quarter 2007 issue "New Products" page 18 Center column Hirsch Selection 20 year old American Whiskey--(I'm not going to copy the article, just take the needed info) This is "Illinois Whiskey" distilled from bourbon mash. The whiskey was put in 120 used casks in Feb 1987. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sijan Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Ah, now I see. Many thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby K Posted November 10, 2007 Author Share Posted November 10, 2007 Yeah, I should've been more specific. It actually says on the label "aged in used bourbon barrels" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Yeah, I should've been more specific. It actually says on the label "aged in used bourbon barrels"Then it is not bourbon by definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pharaoh Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Then it is not bourbon by definition.... and neither is any of that other finished stuff and masterpieces etc.? Sorry couldn't resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 Slightly different issue. Something aged in used cooperage is not and never has been bourbon. Something finished is bourbon that then has something else done to it which, in the minds of some, separates it from its bourbon-ness. Can you un-bourbon something? That's the philosophical quandary. Something that is not, never was and never will be bourbon is an easier call.I couldn't resist either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pharaoh Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 Good point, Chuck. In my view, finishing obviously doesn't jibe well with the "imparting flavors" lingo in the definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 Most of the federal regulations are about truth in labeling. You can make anything you want, as long as you label it accurately. The true description of something like the Woodford Reserve Sonoma Cutrer is "bourbon whiskey finished in Chardonnay casks," which is how it's labeled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pharaoh Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 Again, point well taken and you did say most of the Fed regulations, that I can get behind. From more of a reverse angle though, stipulating recipe requirements (grain percentages) wood types, char requirements and barrel entry guidelines goes a bit further than enforcing label integrity, imho. It's probably my lone view but I tend to find finishing going astray of the initial integrities put in place. For example, I don't believe I've seen an accurate description of what exactly constitutes finishing and what the process if any entails other than putting spirit into a different barrel before dumping / bottling. There is no time frame or other enforcements involved so far as I've paid attention (which I admit NOT much). I may be way off here in assuming this but could I not tomorrow take a empty barrel of choice - pour the last third of a bottle of Hennessey in it... let the Hennessey sit in the barrel a few days... then crack open a barrel of 10 year old bourbon and pour the contents into the Hennessey stained barrel and immidiately take out an add for my new cognac *FINISHED* bourbon product? Hell I might even get creative or carried away and use some sugar-maple charcoal to filter the Hennessey before dumping it in the barrel ...this way we could make a cool play on words and call it Tennessey Whisky. Just a gut feeling, but something tells me the original language in the federal regulations would have contained guidelines to avoid this discussion had it been thought of or a topic at the time of introduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 The enforcement is whether or not the consumer buys it. I like the idea that the government doesn't tell you what you have to make or how you have to make it, they just make you be honest about it. As government goes, I like it like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fdeee Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 I had a bottle of this stuff on Saturday night with my buddy Patrick. We have tried every Whiskey out there, and this is one hell of a great whiskey. If you can grab a bottle do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vange Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 You liked it that much? I thought it average at best and poor for the price. I can get a Pappy 20 for near same price. NO comparison! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barturtle Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Every Whiskey? I'm not sure I know anyone who has completed that task! Did you take notes on these hundreds of bottles? If so, please share.I can't comment on the whiskey, as I haven't had it, but I think this is one I'd like to try before I buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fussychicken Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 I just heard about this whiskey today and am intrigued by the "Illinois Whiskey" descriptor. (Not that I really want to buy any) I wonder where this stuff was made. There are only 5 IL DSPs listed on the current USA DSP list. (One of them is Diageo however. ) I wonder if you take neutral grain spirits, stick them in a cask, can you call it "whiskey?"This also brings up a thought that I have never considered before. We all know that bourbon gets so much of its flavor from the fact it is aged in new barrels. And that the scotch boys have to age their products much longer to get barrel influence. With that said however, I wonder what a corn or rye distillate would taste like if aged in a used barrel for a long time. In other words, are there different flavors you get from a used barrel that you don't get from a new barrel? (I'm not talking about the influence that you get from whatever was in the barrel before, but rather from the influence of the wood itself.) To put it another way, does "used up" wood impart a different and/or better and/or worse character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Who in Illinois was making whiskey in 1987? I'm told of a mysterious distillery in East St. Louis (really, I'm not kidding), but I don't know anything more than that.There were quite a few whiskey distilleries in Illinois through the 1960s. The last one in Peoria closed in 1972. I don't know of any that went longer, but I am told there was this one in ESL that went to 1987. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pharaoh Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 I just heard about this whiskey today and am intrigued by the "Illinois Whiskey" descriptor. (Not that I really want to buy any) I wonder where this stuff was made. There are only 5 IL DSPs listed on the current USA DSP list. (One of them is Diageo however. ) I wonder if you take neutral grain spirits, stick them in a cask, can you call it "whiskey?"This also brings up a thought that I have never considered before. We all know that bourbon gets so much of its flavor from the fact it is aged in new barrels. And that the scotch boys have to age their products much longer to get barrel influence. With that said however, I wonder what a corn or rye distillate would taste like if aged in a used barrel for a long time. In other words, are there different flavors you get from a used barrel that you don't get from a new barrel? (I'm not talking about the influence that you get from whatever was in the barrel before, but rather from the influence of the wood itself.) To put it another way, does "used up" wood impart a different and/or better and/or worse character?This is an interesting thought but one I'm thinking has some serious snags to factor in. Things like accounting for the regional environmental differences between the US and Scotland. Discerning the difference of the toll taken on wood when corn, rye or whiskey are common ingredients vs. the effect of 100% barley (if talking about single malt whisky). What role do the (typically) disassembled barrels play in comparison to the reconstructed casks? Is it relevant that a cask might be reconstructed of wood that held various brands or types of whiskey aged various years with differing formulas / percentages, and perhaps different chars on the wood etc. etc. etc.In other words, just contemplating sorting it all out - hurts my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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