Seagram's Benchmark

[Gillman]

This is my understanding.

Gary

[cowdery]

Ezra Brooks was named after and created by Ezra Ripy at the Hoffman Distillery outside of Lawrenceburg. That's the distillery Julian Van Winkle later used for aging and bottling.

The last distillery operated by the descendents of J.T.S. Brown to make J.T.S. Brown Bourbon is the distillery now known as Four Roses. Seagram's bought the brand when they bought the distillery during World War II and later sold it to Heaven Hill. Presumably, Fighting Cock followed J.T.S. Brown in all of those transactions. I believe Creel Brown remained with the distillery until about 1953. He's still living.

Fighting Cock, like Eagle Rare, was a Wild Turkey knock-off. Ezra Brooks, like Evan Williams, was a Jack Daniel's knock-off.

[ratcheer]

Fighting Cock, like Eagle Rare, was a Wild Turkey knock-off. Ezra Brooks, like Evan Williams, was a Jack Daniel's knock-off.

When I was just starting college (late 60's), my friends frequently bought Ezra Brooks and Evan Williams. It was always my distinct impression that they were trying to present themselves as being like Jack Daniels.

Tim

[craigthom]

Sure. Square bottle, white on black label, big old "7" on the front. They both wanted a piece of that Lynchburg pie.

I figured that Eagle Rare and Fighting Cock were both Turkey competitors, given the proof and the birds. Fighting Cock is even two proof points better, while Eagle Rare was two years older.

What I haven't read, but assume given the facts, is that Wild Turkey, sold when most bourbons were 100 proof, was Nigel Tufnel marketing: "It's like at 100, and then you turn it up to 101!"

So where is this closed distillery in Lawrenceburg? I want to drive by it.

[barturtle]

It may be possible that Wild Turkey didn't want to give away its source(s) by doing a bonded bourbon. When the brand was started they were nothing more than a bottler, they didn't own a distillery. KBD does similar things today, look at the proofs of their brands, 101, 100.1, gets you right there, keeps your source hidden.

[ratcheer]

It may be possible that Wild Turkey didn't want to give away its source(s) by doing a bonded bourbon. When the brand was started they were nothing more than a bottler, they didn't own a distillery. KBD does similar things today, look at the proofs of their brands, 101, 100.1, gets you right there, keeps your source hidden.

That implies that if a bourbon is 100 proof, it must be bonded. Is that true? I wouldn't have thought so.

Here is an example: There has been BIB Old Forester, but there has also been 100-proof Old Forester that is not BIB. Am I missing something?

Tim

[barturtle]

No it is not required. However at that time it was quite common, and still is for the most part. Old Forester is the only brand I can think of that has broken with that tradition.

[craigthom]

Four Roses Single Barrel. It fits the rules for BIB, but that's not on the label.

[barturtle]

Four Roses Single Barrel. It fits the rules for BIB, but that's not on the label.

Ah, and Knob Creek, too.

I knew someone would come up with something i had forgotten about.

Anyway, at the time Bond was still a well regarded designation. They didn't own a distillery and were unlikely to be willing to reveal that. That's my guess.

[cowdery]

In the beginning, the maker's of Wild Turkey didn't own a distillery. They bought bulk whiskey from many different distilleries. Therefore, their product could not be a bond. To compete with bonds on a superior, rather than inferior, footing they went them one better at 101 proof. In that sense, yes, it's the Spinal Tap approach.

[fishnbowljoe]

Here's a couple of pics of the Benchmark I bought Tuesday. Joe

[cowdery]

With the New Orleans name on it, that could be Heaven Hill's juice.

[fishnbowljoe]

Same as MJL and the OF bottle he found. 91 on the bottom. Joe

[mozilla]

Here's a couple of pics of the Benchmark I bought Tuesday. Joe

That is the first time I have seen that label Joe. What year did you say it was from? Do you have any current Benchmark? It would be interesting to compare the two.

[OscarV]

Here's a couple of pics of the Benchmark I bought Tuesday. Joe

[QUOTE][/QUOTE]

As they say here in Hockey Town,...He shoots, He scores!!

Nice score Joe.

[fishnbowljoe]

Bottle has 91 on the bottom. I don't have any current Benchmark. Joe

[mozilla]

Do you have any prefire HH? A side by side of this bottle and another, should be done. I know that Benchmark doesn't float alot of boats on this site, but the history of how Saz got it's start is interesting to me. I would like to know more about how distilleries sell and share their products with customers and other distilleries.

I am having a hardtime recollecting any other BT/Sazeracs in that type of bottle. Are the lower sides of the bottle tapered or strait? Did you ever find a julian date?

I am guessing, ...but with the fact that Sazerac didn't own a distillery, and they were already purchasing bourbon for Eagle Rare....that Sazerac might have either...1. used some ER(from HH) to fill(at Saz in NO) those, 2. purchased younger bourbon from HH to fill the contract, and bottled at HH, or 3. purchased the bourbon from another distillery entirely and bottled it at God knows where.

Any thoughts?

[cowdery]

All of Sazerac's bourbon came from Heaven Hill until they acquired Buffalo Trace.

[mozilla]

How can you be sure of that, Chuck?

Did HH do all of their bottling as well?

[cowdery]

No, because bottles that say New Orleans on them probably were bottled in New Orleans.

Sazerac may have received some bulk bourbon from BT immediately before it acquired the place, but there was a shift in the relationship. HH and Sazerac had a partnership, almost a joint venture, in which Sazerac was acquiring brands and developing a marketing infrastructure using HH's whiskey and expertise. They even shared an ad agency. When Sazerac broke that bond and went off on its own there was a lot of bad blood--serious, serious bad blood--so there was no overlap between the two relationships, i.e., no period when Sazerac was happily buying bulk whiskey from both sources or anything like that. It's a sharp break.

I know this because I was involved at the time and I remember it. As we know, my memory isn't always perfect, but that's how I remember it.

[mozilla]

Very nice information. Thanks for making it known.

Was Sazerac not getting everything they needed from their relationship with HH? Maybe, they wanted to get bigger and HH was not eager to have a major competator?

[cowdery]

I wasn't close enough to be able to answer that, but I can tell you that Max Shapira and Mark Brown still hate each other.

[mozilla]

That is too bad. No need to hate one another over business decisions. This is such a friendly, family styled business with a history of cooperation....hard to believe that two major players are not friendly with each other.

[cowdery]

Yeah, it's a friendly, family styled business with a history of cooperation alright, except when they're stabbing each other in the back. It's actually some of both, but they love that image of everybody helping everybody out.

[barturtle]

Yeah, it's a friendly, family styled business with a history of cooperation alright, except when they're stabbing each other in the back.

Welcome to Kentucky.