Diageo evil?

[Josh]

Many drinkers and especially writers seem to regard them as such so I thought I 'd get the opinion of the forum. Is Diageo evil? At least from the Bourbon drinker's perspective.

[theBOURBONreview]

I would make the argument that Diageo is not evil. Their corporate responsibility platform is respectable. They educate their consumers on the effects of alcohol and responsible alcohol consumption.

[barturtle]

I thought polls were disabled...?!?

[Josh]

I thought polls were disabled...?!?

[shoshani]

I would make the argument that Diageo is not evil. Their corporate responsibility platform is respectable. They educate their consumers on the effects of alcohol and responsible alcohol consumption.

[Rughi]

That isn't what this is about; I would guess that it's more about their corporate predecessor (United Distillers) and various actions that they took that wound up needlessly shuttering a much-beloved distillery, ie Stitzel-Weller.

[Josh]

I believe the negative image of Diageo has been mostly formed in their Scotch portfolio.

If I'm not mistaken it was Diageo that closed Rosebank, which I would say is the Lowland Scotch equivalent of SW, more or less. In my minimal Scotch experiences, I can't say I ever tasted a Rosebank that I didn't think was delightful, and I can't say I've tasted a different Lowlander that I thought was.

Roger

Yeah, that was the thrust of my question. It wasn't about their responsible drinking program or their healthcare plan or anything like that (although if ppl want to use those things to support their answer that's fine). It's a question as to whether they have shown themselves to be evil by their actions, such as closing distilleries, treatment of their brands, etc.

[barturtle]

I believe the negative image of Diageo has been mostly formed in their Scotch portfolio.

If I'm not mistaken it was Diageo that closed Rosebank, which I would say is the Lowland Scotch equivalent of SW, more or less. In my minimal Scotch experiences, I can't say I ever tasted a Rosebank that I didn't think was delightful, and I can't say I've tasted a different Lowlander that I thought was.

Roger

Scotch Distilleries destroyed by Diageo:

Banff

Glen Albyn

Glenesk

Glenlochy

Glenury Royal

Glen Mhor

Millburn

North Port

Pittyvaich

St. Magdalene

Mothballed:

Mannochmore

Closed:

Brora

Coleburn

Port Ellen

Rosebank

They've also attempted several times to close St. James Gate Brewery (the home of Guinness), but luckily have caved to public pressure to keep it open...so far.

To follow the history of Diageo in the USA you gotta got back and start with Schenley.

By 1933 when Schenley Distillers Corp. was founded it consisted of the following companies: (thanks to Mike Veach)

Schenley Products Co., Inc.

Schenley Wine & Spirit Import Corporation

Jos. S. Finch Co.

Geo. T Stagg Co.

Jas. E Pepper & Co.

John T Barbee Co.

A B Blanton Small Tub Distilling Co.

Cove Spring Distilling Co.

Greenbrier Distilling Co.

Melvale Distilling Co.

Sam Thompson Gibson Distilleries Co.

Old Quaker Co.

Napa Valley Wine and Brandy Co.

Eastern Distillers Syndicate

Monticello Distillery Co.

Over the next few years they add:

New England Distilling Co.

Bernheim Distilling Co.

American Eagle Distillery

Oldtyme Distilling Corp. (two distilleries)

John A Wathen Distillery Co.

Buffalo Springs Distillery

Bardstown, Ky Distillery

Pebbleford Distillery

Limestone Springs Distillery

JW Dant

Park and Tillford

(plus several wine/beer/other companies)

Then they merged with UDV (1987) which brought with them Stitzel Weller.

How many of those are still in operation? And how many by Diageo?

[Vange]

Port Ellen gets that SW stigma as well.

It is disturbing when you list them all out what Diageo has done to some fine distilleries.

[cowdery]

The illegal acquisition of Distiller's Company Limited (DCL) by Guinness in 1986 still hangs over Diageo's head, in my opinion. As for Stitzel, in 1984 DCL acquired Somerset Importers, which owned Stitzel, so Stitzel became part of Guinness in 1986 as part of that same illegal deal.

But if anyone "ruined" Stitzel-Weller it was probably the dissident shareholders who forced it out of the family in 1972.

[bourbonv]

Timothy,

In Diageo's defense, most of those distilleries listed were closed by Schenley in the 1960's and early 70's. When they became part of U.D. they really only had Dickel, Bernheim and Old Quaker. Of course U.D. made it a point to sell off Old Quaker and after purchasing Glenmore, they sold Yeloowstone and Medley distilleries and the bottling operation at the Glenmore distillery in Owensboro (the distillery had already been dismantled.) The closed Stitzel-Weller and has been looking for a buyer, but maybe not after purchasing Crown Royal.

The corporate philosphy at Diageo is short term profits to make the investors happy and no real plan to invest in the future of the brands or distilleries.

Mike Veach

[barturtle]

True, and many of the closed/destroyed Scotch distilleries were actually done by DLC, but I think it is very indicative that a company with a reputation of closing distilleries also buys companies with a background of doing the same.

If one was to buy a company with a history of closing distilleries and reopen its holdings, then you would be heralded as a savior, if you simply keep to the course of the previous management, then the reputation you inherit is justified.

[pepcycle]

What would have happened to the brown liquor industry had there been little or no consolidation???

In a Darwinian fashion, only the strong would survive.

Its a shame a few unicorns became extinct.

I'd rather blame Cold Duck, Gallo wine, cheap marijuana, tequila, Budweiser, designer vodka and TV for the demise of those distilleries.

Your Grandfather's whiskey represented the establishment.

The 60's and 70's were all about rebellion against that image.

[OscarV]

I'd rather blame Cold Duck, Gallo wine, cheap marijuana, tequila, Budweiser, designer vodka and TV for the demise of those distilleries.

Your Grandfather's whiskey represented the establishment.

The 60's and 70's were all about rebellion against that image.

Ah yes, whiskey on the rocks, drank while wearing a tuxcedo, that's what we used to call the Death Culture.

(btw, TV still sucks!)

[bourbonv]

Timothy,

I agree with you that United Distillers squandered many great oportunities. I W Harper was the best selling whiskey (not just bourbon) imported into Japan in 1996. Now it is hardly 25% of that amount. They missed a chance to take a brand like Weller or Old Fitzgerald and turn it into a great international brand and instead took Rebel Yell. They then dropped sales support for Rebel Yell and got stuck with a sea of wheated bourbon, that was good for Julian Van Winkle, but horrible for the company. Diageo is not evil just short sighted to the point of being stupid.

Mike Veach

[Josh]

Timothy,

I agree with you that United Distillers squandered many great oportunities. I W Harper was the best selling whiskey (not just bourbon) imported into Japan in 1996. Now it is hardly 25% of that amount. They missed a chance to take a brand like Weller or Old Fitzgerald and turn it into a great international brand and instead took Rebel Yell. They then dropped sales support for Rebel Yell and got stuck with a sea of wheated bourbon, that was good for Julian Van Winkle, but horrible for the company. Diageo is not evil just short sighted to the point of being stupid.

Mike Veach

Great discussion! The consesus seems to be that they are indeed evil for being stupid, being born out of an illegal deal, closing oodles of Scotch distilleries, the beloved S-W and assorted nefarious deeds.

The point about consolidation is a good one. It has happened over the years in just about every industry under the sun. Every time I head down to Indiana I pass the Auburn-Cord-Dusenberg Museum in Auburn, IN that stands as a testimony to that fact. But for most people that doesn't seem to justify the foolish & destructive actions of the company. Anyway, getting off the soapbox.

[bourbonv]

If you count Diageo as evil, then you have to say the same thing about Beam. Look at what they have done with Old Crow, Old Taylor and to a lesser extent, Old Grand Dad. It can be argued that E H Taylor, Jr was the most important person in the bourbon industry in the late 19th century. The same could be said for Crow in the earlier part of the century. Beam took over these brands and sold the Old Taylor Distillery, closed Old Crow and neglected the Old Grand Dad. I won't even go into they rye side of the business that Beam purchased from National.

The point is that short term corporate profits for the last couple of decades have been more important than long range growth. This is a deadly combination in an industry that has long range production cycles. Bourbon is not made in a day and short term thinking is bad.

Mike Veach

[OscarV]

The point is that short term corporate profits for the last couple of decades have been more important than long range growth. This is a deadly combination in an industry that has long range production cycles. Bourbon is not made in a day and short term thinking is bad.

Mike Veach

Agreed 100%.

Do you think it would be possible for Beam to revive the old Old Crow recipe/mashbill?

I think it is to late, Old crow is dead and to reintroduce it with that name I think it would be DOA.

[bourbonv]

Four Roses was re-introduced after years of being a blended whiskey on par with Old Crow. It could be done, but Beam will not do it. I wish they would sell these labels to someone who would right by them.

Mike Veach

[OscarV]

Four Roses was re-introduced after years of being a blended whiskey on par with Old Crow. It could be done, but Beam will not do it. I wish they would sell these labels to someone who would right by them.

Mike Veach

Yeah, you are right.

You say the name Four Roses up in these parts and they laff in your face.

"...that rotgut swill." is the typical responce.

You would think that if FR's could do it then OC could do it.

But that name, maybe it would work maybe it wouldn't.

The "Old" is a handicap, but the "Crow" is a winner.

[Josh]

If you count Diageo as evil, then you have to say the same thing about Beam. Look at what they have done with Old Crow, Old Taylor and to a lesser extent, Old Grand Dad. It can be argued that E H Taylor, Jr was the most important person in the bourbon industry in the late 19th century. The same could be said for Crow in the earlier part of the century. Beam took over these brands and sold the Old Taylor Distillery, closed Old Crow and neglected the Old Grand Dad. I won't even go into they rye side of the business that Beam purchased from National.

The point is that short term corporate profits for the last couple of decades have been more important than long range growth. This is a deadly combination in an industry that has long range production cycles. Bourbon is not made in a day and short term thinking is bad.

Mike Veach

I agree with you about short-term thinking, but from what I've read, I'm not sure if Old Crow was viable anymore or if keeping the Taylor property as a working distillery was really a viable option for Beam at the time. It certainly could and should have been kept up, maybe donated to the state or something, so I think Beam could be faulted for that.

I have never tasted any of the pre-Beam OGD (to my knowledge) so I can't speak to the differences, but I think Beam should be commended for keeping OGD alive and keeping its own distinct mashbill and continuing to offer it as a BIB and in the 114 expression. They even extended the line and created BH as a premium version.

So for me, Beam falls short of the standards of evil-ness, but might deserve a wag of the finger for what happened after it bought ND.

[OscarV]

So for me, Beam falls short of the standards of evil-ness, but might deserve a wag of the finger for what happened after it bought ND.

If you ever drank any pre-Beam Crow you would say that Beam is truly evil.

[Josh]

If you ever drank any pre-Beam Crow you would say that Beam is truly evil.

Does that mean you're going to bring some to the get together on Saturday?

[OscarV]

Does that mean you're going to bring some to the get together on Saturday?

I'll just be bringin' my memory of Old Crow.

[shoshani]

I have never tasted any of the pre-Beam OGD (to my knowledge) so I can't speak to the differences, but I think Beam should be commended for keeping OGD alive and keeping its own distinct mashbill and continuing to offer it as a BIB and in the 114 expression. They even extended the line and created BH as a premium version.

Stop and think about what sort of mindset will put out a 100 proof Bottled in Bond whiskey, then offer an 80 proof expression as a *premium* version. This was clearly a decision arrived at by marketers, not distillers....