Premium Wheated Bourbons

[dukeofsandwich]

I am putting together a tasting which includes standard and premium bottles with different mash bills. I selected the Old Fitz BIB as my standard wheated bourbon, but I'm having trouble finding a premium (and also excellent) wheated bourbon. I've been bidding on Very Old Fitzgerald's on Ebay but the prices get too high I'd like to stay under $150 for this bottle. Any suggestions? Are any of the older Willett bottlings out there wheated? How about the other KBD bottlings?

[barturtle]

You could get any of the W.L.Weller's or Van Winkles...

[spun_cookie]

I am putting together a tasting which includes standard and premium bottles with different mash bills. I selected the Old Fitz BIB as my standard wheated bourbon, but I'm having trouble finding a premium (and also excellent) wheated bourbon. I've been bidding on Very Old Fitzgerald's on Ebay but the prices get too high I'd like to stay under $150 for this bottle. Any suggestions? Are any of the older Willett bottlings out there wheated? How about the other KBD bottlings?

The old Fitz (vof, evof, Vvpf, evvof)s are a mint.

You can get the same from a good PVW 20 (still pricey, but not nearly as much), PVW 15 would make a good choice as well for $50-65.

If you get the 20 yr PVW, it will be an S-W like the Very Old Fitz Bib.

For $40, you can grab a mid level with a PVW Lot B....

My recomendation, if you are looking to spend around $150 would be to get teh 20yr PVW and the VW 12 yr Lot B. You can get both for around $150 and have two to taste from... the Lot B will be BT, so it adds that extra dimension to your event...

What spread are you going for? Wheat, Rye, wheated, high rye, low rye, etc?

[cowdery]

I just bought a bottle of Lot B at Binny's -- $39.99. You can't do much better than that. Another way to go would be a William LaRue Weller, but I don't think that shows that well as a wheater because, like all of the Antiques, it's so wood-heavy.

[dukeofsandwich]

What spread are you going for? Wheat, Rye, wheated, high rye, low rye, etc?

My plan was to first have everyone taste a 100% Rye (Hudson Manhattan Whiskey or maybe Old Potrero), 100% Corn (Hudson Baby Bourbon), and as close to 100% Wheat as available (Bernheim Original). They can use these as references later on.

Then round two is tasting 4 young standard bottles, a wheated bourbon (Old Fitz BIB), high corn bourbon (IW Harper), ryed bourbon (still deciding), and a straight rye (still deciding). I'm shooting for all 4 years old and 100 proof, try to minimize the differences and influence from the barrel.

Final round is another 4 bottles, premium, tasted blind, from the same categories as round 2. Participants have to try to identify what they are.

[spun_cookie]

ryed bourbon (still deciding), and a straight rye (still deciding).

I'm shooting for all 4 years old and 100 proof, try to minimize the differences and influence from the barrel.

Greg Gilbert might be able to help here... I am not sure about those

Final round is another 4 bottles, premium, tasted blind, from the same categories as round 2. Participants have to try to identify what they are.

For this ... you can have some fun. Go with the BTACs. WL Weller for Wheat, Stagg for Ryed, and Handy for Full Rye... on the Corn.. Talk to BarTurtle, that is up his alley...

Give them so cask strength and get them to pick... those are premiums

[barturtle]

I think this idea is overly ambitious. It's just too many bottlings for anyone but the most hardened, self-styled whiskey enthusiasts to attempt to get through with any sort of clarity of purpose.

Really 12 whiskies is just too many, most people will have problems getting through 5-6; even seasoned tasters will have problems getting through 8-9.

I'd say 2 rounds of 3 or 1 round of 5.

2 rounds of 3

Round 1: youngish 100 proof bottlings

corn, bourbon, rye

Round 2: shoot for 8-12yo bottlings

Wheat, low rye, high rye

[spun_cookie]

Timothy.. I think you can work 1/4 oz on the first 2 rounds and then 1 oz on the last for the overall understanding...

1 oz of each, each round will even put Mighty Joe down...

[ggilbertva]

If you're looking for straight corn whiskey then some JW Corn is good at 100 proof. If you're truly looking to taste the differences, that would be my suggestion. For a straight Rye, an inexpensive bottle at 100p would be Rittenhouse Rye BIB. Bernheim isn't 100 proof so you may want to go with Weller Antique and cut from 107 to 100 and then for a Rye Bourbon, OGD BIB would be a good choice.

[cowdery]

My plan was to first have everyone taste a 100% Rye (Hudson Manhattan Whiskey or maybe Old Potrero), 100% Corn (Hudson Baby Bourbon), and as close to 100% Wheat as available (Bernheim Original). They can use these as references later on.

This section of the plan seems misguided. Even though the Tuthilltown and Anchor products are 100% rye, they bear little resemblance to standard straight ryes. Ditto the Bernheim wheat and Tuthilltown bourbon. Tuthilltown especially uses many techniques the major producers do not. Their products are unique and significant, but not much good for the reference purpose intended.

Athough Bernheim is made very much like any standard bourbon or rye except for its mash bill, and is a very good product, it has very little value in reference to understanding wheated bourbons.

[jburlowski]

I just bought a bottle of Lot B at Binny's -- $39.99. You can't do much better than that. Another way to go would be a William LaRue Weller, but I don't think that shows that well as a wheater because, like all of the Antiques, it's so wood-heavy.

The most recent WLWs are much younger than the others in the BTAC and don't have so much "oak". In fact, other than the proof, I find them very similar to Weller 12.

[dukeofsandwich]

Perhaps I will eliminate the initial 3 reference samples and just do two rounds of 4, the first open-label, the second blind. The first 4 will serve as the reference samples. That would bring it down to 8 total, I think this group can handle that many in a sitting.

[BrianT]

I would have thought the ordering would go from wheat to corn to rye.

And boy oh boy, I am much less ambitious in variety. My bias says skip the straight corn. I would find it difficult to taste more than three or four. By that time, I'd have picked the favorite of the night and stuck with it.

[dukeofsandwich]

I would have thought the ordering would go from wheat to corn to rye.

And boy oh boy, I am much less ambitious in variety. My bias says skip the straight corn. I would find it difficult to taste more than three or four. By that time, I'd have picked the favorite of the night and stuck with it.

You are completely missing the point.

[BrianT]

Which point am I missing?

Why you start with rye rather than wheat? I would certainly like to know why you do that.

Or why you are tasting so many? Firstly, my tasting vocabulary is not very extensive to begin with. Secondly, I find that after each taste and spit, there is an exponential decrease in the ability of my tongue and nose to differentiate between tastes. So I was just remarking that so much variety at one time would be wasted on me.

[cowdery]

What I got was that the point of the exercise isn't to pick a favorite, it's to educate the palate to recognize different flavors attributable to the different grains.

[BrianT]

Thanks for the explanation!

[bonneamie]

It sounds like a lot of fun. Be sure to keep us posted on the results.

[shoshani]

Here's a suggestion that may put all your wheated bourbon on a more even footing:

Let your guests taste

*Maker's Mark

*Very Special Old Fitzgerald

*Old Fitzgerald 1849

*Van Winkle Lot "B"

*Old Rip Van Winkle 10 Years Old 90 proof

*Weller Special Reserve

*W. L. Weller 12 year old

This gives you a full range of wheated bourbon at the same strength (90 proof), but at the following nominal ages:

*Between 5 and 6 years (Makers Mark)

*Seven years (Weller Special Reserve)

*Eight Years (Old Fitzgerald 1849)

*Ten Years (Old Rip 10)

*Twelve Years (Very Special Old Fitzgerald, W. L Weller 12 year old, Van Winkle Lot "B")

This will give your guests a tasting where the whiskeys are on a common footing so far as the strength goes, but they can see the effects that aging (and skillful vatting) has on the finished product.

[dukeofsandwich]

Sorry Brian, I should have explained, but Chuck was right. I actually hadn't given much thought to the order, but I guess I'd start with wheat, then corn/very low rye, then rye bourbon, then straight rye in the first round. Second round would be random.

I picked up a bottle of the VW12 Lot B, very tasty. I may keep looking for something a little richer (in taste, not necessarily price) but this is a good candidate. I've become a big fan of the wheaters, so I want something real special to try to gain some converts.

I had this bottle I should have used for the meeting, but it leaked a little during shipping so of course I had to try it and now its half gone!!!

[shoshani]

I had this bottle I should have used for the meeting, but it leaked a little during shipping so of course I had to try it and now its half gone!!!

A common and completely understandable side-effect of possessing Stitzel-Weller bourbon.

[gblick]

I picked up a bottle of the VW12 Lot B, very tasty. I may keep looking for something a little richer (in taste, not necessarily price) but this is a good candidate. I've become a big fan of the wheaters, so I want something real special to try to gain some converts.

You might try to find some ORVW 10/107 (I actually prefer this over the Lot , or better yet some Pappy 15yo (if you don't mind spending the extra money on it). That Old Fitz looks good, but you don't want them tasting that and then expecting the same thing when they see a new bottle in the store.

[shoshani]

You might try to find some ORVW 10/107 (I actually prefer this over the Lot , or better yet some Pappy 15yo (if you don't mind spending the extra money on it). That Old Fitz looks good, but you don't want them tasting that and then expecting the same thing when they see a new bottle in the store.

Gus has an excellent point: The Old Fitz decanter you have contains whiskey distilled by the now-shuttered Stitzel-Weller distillery. Old Fitz on the shelves currently comes from Heaven Hill's Bernheim distillery, and while it's very decent, it is not the same by a long shot.

Stitz Fitz was in a class by itself and is highly sought-after today because of it.

I'm actually curious as to why someone like Charles Medley or Even Kulsveen hasn't tried to buy the distillery, get Edwin Foote to show them the particulars of making wheated bourbon, and go after a market that is well ready for the kind of bourbon produced there in its glory days. Of course, they'd have to find a different brand name for their flagship product...something like "Old Judge", for instance :-D

[cowdery]

I'm actually curious as to why someone like Charles Medley or Even Kulsveen hasn't tried to buy the distillery, get Edwin Foote to show them the particulars of making wheated bourbon, and go after a market that is well ready for the kind of bourbon produced there in its glory days. Of course, they'd have to find a different brand name for their flagship product...something like "Old Judge", for instance :-D

Charles didn't have the inclination or resources to restart the distillery he owned, so him buying SW would be far-fetched. Similar answer to Even. He already owns an old distillery that he has been trying to reopen for decades. He doesn't need another one.

When SW closed, it was on its last legs in terms of long-deferred maintenance and other practical, operational issues. There is also asbestos abatement that would need to occur before it could reopen. Dave Pickerell, formerly of Maker's Mark, has made a serious exploration of the possibility and decided it was too much for him. Diageo has been buying a lot of new make and aging it at SW, so they probably have considered doing something there.

[dukeofsandwich]

That Old Fitz looks good, but you don't want them tasting that and then expecting the same thing when they see a new bottle in the store.

A very good point. Has the Pappy 15 always been wheated, or do I have to worry about older bottles being rye?