My First Impressions of Some Recommended Scotches

[bluesbassdad]

I'm just checking in so that those of you who generously offered advice will know that I've put some of it to good use.

***

Famous Grouse -- I like it, and I can't identify any flavor component. It's not flowery, grassy, smokey, mediciney, woody, or any of the words I've seen others use. It has a very gentle, somewhat darkly (?) sweet taste that is faintly similar to black rye bread after I've chewed it awhile. Could I be tasting the flavor of actual malt, a la malted milkshake?

Johnnie Walker black -- It's a little more demanding than Famous Grouse, certainly not as sweet, and a fuller, slightly mediciney taste. The taste reminded me of the scene in Mr. Roberts where the lads are trying to create scotch from readily available ingredients on board a Navy ship. Someone suggests adding one drop of iodine, after which they all agree that they've succeeded in duplicating the taste of scotch.

Macallan 12 -- Am I dreaming or do I really taste sherry from the aging casks? Stronger flavor than the FG, but perhaps gentler than JW and lacking its mediciney flavor. I liked the 50 ml. bottle well enough to buy a 750 for further exploration.

Glendronach 15 -- One 50 ml.bottle is not enough to get familiar with this one. I think someone suggested a direct comparison with Mac 12. I don't get the similarity. No sherry taste that I can detect, and considerably lighter, with noticeable oak (as in chardonnay, not Russell's Reserve).

On the shelf now, but not yet tasted:

Teachers Highland Cream

Dalmore 12

Glenlivet 12

Glenfiddich 12

Sheep Dip (I bought this one for my son's girlfriend, who likes collectibles with a sheep theme. I won't get a taste of it unless she decides to open the bottle rather than just display it. Should I include some tasting glasses as a hint? )

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[tdelling]

>Macallan 12 -- Am I dreaming or do I really taste sherry from the aging casks?

Yes, you most certainly do. Personally, I think the Macallan 12 is "over-sherried",

and it's not something I can drink very often (even though I have a bottle...).

Some people love it, but it's just not for me.

I have tried the Macallan 18, which I do like, but the 12 just has too much of

a sherry influence for me.

(The famous scotch/beer writer Michael Jackson thinks that the Macallan

is the best thing on earth... I most definitely disagree.)

Tim

[texascarl]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />

(The famous scotch/beer writer Michael Jackson thinks that the Macallan

is the best thing on earth... I most definitely disagree.)

[Jono]

I am glad you like the Macallan...one of my favorites. As with bourbon or anything consumed...everybody has a different reaction to tastes. I happen to enjoy the extra sherry flavors in the 12 yr...but compare that to a smokey Islay and you can have completely different preferences. I like them all...at different times.

[bluesbassdad]

With each drink of Famous Grouse (at hand right now) or Johnnie Walker black label (with the late news last night), I find that I like the former a bit less and the latter a bit more.

I hardly trust my own senses any more (especially after my total failure on Linn's homework assignment -- the blind tasting of four bourbons), but I think the FG is a bit more aromatic than the JW; however, it fades and/or changes on the palate, and even more so in the finish. The JW seems to carry on seamlessly from first nose to the last hint of warming in the esophagus. I can foresee that at some point JW may become my preference of the two. (If I continue to prefer the cheaper of the two, that wouldn't be a disappointment.)

I still haven't tried them head-to-head, and after my aforementioned blind-tasting experience I am somewhat afraid to.

At the moment I still enjoy both of them, and (uncharacteristically) I am in no hurry to open any of my recently acquired, modest assortment of single malts. In fact, I may decide to spend quite a bit more time with blends, including the as yet unopened Teacher's, before I move on.

As I think back to my experience with my small assortment of 50 ml bottles, I am surprised that the blends are as full-flavored as they are. I expected much less. My memory tells me that Famous Grouse is as flavorful (as in strength, not necessarily pleasure) as the Glendronach 15 or the Cardhu 12, but not as intense as Macallan 12.

As days go by I find that drinking scotch is taking on a different quality. What I used to call "wimpy" is magically being transformed to "subtle". The experience is similar to the way my taste in pipe tobacco changed during the last ten years that I smoked.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[bluesbassdad]

Last night I finished my first bottle of Famous Grouse. I decided to stick with the lower-priced blends; so I opened the Teacher's Highland Cream.

The word "cream" in the name probably had me expecting the flavors to be even richer and smoother than the FG. I found the oppposite.

Although my palate was dulled by the two large pours of FG, the Teacher's definitely had a spicier effect on the palate, and even more so at the finish. It reminded me ever-so-slightly of Cardhu 12, which I've only sampled (50 ml's worth). Like the Cardhu, Teacher's seemed to be too much icing and not enough cake, the basic flavors overwhelmed by what should be seasonings.

I happened to notice an age statement on the bottle. It's a whopping 36 months. Isn't that damning with faint praise? Why bother to print such a meager age on the label?

Needless to say, these are merely first impressions, and they will undoubtedly change with more time and experience.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[bluesbassdad]

Tasting this single malt for the very first time on an afternoon when I've already drunk a half-shot each of Famous Grouse and Teacher's Highland Cream is probably not going to allow me to taste it fairly. Who said I'm fair?

After I removed the bottle from the hoity-toity box (why do they do that?) marked "$19.99 Trader Joe's", I noticed that the label displays a statement I've never seen before "Aged only [emphasis mine] in Oak Casks". Are other woods used to make aging casks? If so are they ever used to age whisk(e)y? (Not that I'm aware of.) Does the capitalization indicate some added meaning, as, for example a trademark of a particular cooperage? (I wouldn't think so. Don't all of their casks come from whiskey distilleries in the U.S.A.?)

Setting aside the irony of drinking scotch from a glass that bears the legend, "Evan Williams SINGLE BARREL VINTAGE", I raise glass to nose and sniff. Did I forget to pour the scotch? This is quite delicate compared to the two blends I was sampling earlier. It lacks the Connecticut cigar-leaf aroma of Famous Grouse and the spicey fragrance of Teacher's Highland Cream.

The taste on the palate is still very light, a little sweet and fruity, and only slightly spicey. At the second sip I notice a flavor akin to Virginia pipe tobacco, naturally cured to a deep brown. Later I notice oak flavor, like Chardonnay, not Wild Turkey. (Do you suppose they scrape out the char layer before they reuse the barrels?)

The finish has much more substance than I first expected. After the first sip it grows to a peak at about five to ten seconds. On subesquent sips the peaking effect is no longer noticeable. A slightly smokey oakiness fades very gracefully to a gentle sweetness (Kiwi fruit? banana?) that seems as though it might last forever.

I recall reading a review that said something like "Ignore The Glenlivet at your peril", which seemed odd at the time. Now I appreciate that comment. At first The Glenlivet seems as though it's a lightweight whisky. However, it doesn't take long for its charm to emerge, albeit very subtley. The next time I'm in the mood for scotch, this is likely to be the one I reach for.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[Bob]

Dave,

Regarding your question, "Don't all of their casks come from whiskey distilleries in the USA?", the answer is that Scotch distillers use a lot of Bourbon casks, but use others as well. Macallan for one, uses only Spanish oak casks, that have previously been used for aging Sherry. Glenmorangie uses European oak that also was used with sherry, but also with port and madeira. I've read that Glenmorangie will also buy casks, then lease them to a bourbon producer, and after housing bourbon they get them back for their use.

In terms of your question regarding the use of other woods for aging, Michael Jackson states in his "Complete Guide to Single Malt Scotch" that "In theory, all Scotch whisky is aged in oak. In practice, a cask made from chestnut or mahogany very occasionally turns up in a distillery".

Regarding your question about scraping out the char layer before reusing, I've also read that some Scotch distilleries use a variety of techniques to rejuvenate old casks. One technique involved re-charring the cask. Another techinque was to scrape the inside of the cask in order to expose new wood to the whisky, but the cask would then be recharred. In case anyone is interested, this info comes from "Appreciating Whisky" by Phillip Hills. It's got some pretty good info in it. Hope this helped.

Bob

[Blackkeno]

The Glenlivet is often dished by Single Malt buffs as the "Budweiser of Malts," but I have heard in blind tastings it does quite well. I certainly think it is a decent malt, and it was the first one I ever bought over 20 years ago.

I don't own it (the 12yo) now for the same reason I don't own Knob Creek. They are so available in bars. It's nice to know when I'm out, I can order something I like but don't have at home.

I currently have the Glenlivet French Oak which I prefer to the standard. The NEW French Oak gives it a very distinctive taste as otherwise Scotch uses almost exclusively USED casks. I also have a cask strength 20yo bottling by Cadenhead that should certainly silence those who say Glenlivet doesn't have enough guts.

[Jono]

I have just gone through a pc crash...so, Dude, I got a Dell! Now that I am back up and running...The Glenlivet 12 is a very nice to drink Scotch...pleasant taste, some interesting flavors...along with Glenfiddich, this was one of my first Scotches...I still enjoy both...sort of like choosing a Pinot Grigio rather than a Cabernet..there is a time and a place for each.

[bluesbassdad]

I revisited this one this afternoon, prompted in part by a disquieting experience last night with one of my stated favorite bourbons -- but that doesn't belong in this forum.

It's been months since I last drank any scotch, much less Teacher's, and I was surprised at how tasty and satisfying I found it this time. There's definitely not much in the way of complexity here, just your basic scotch flavor without the iodine, smoke, seaweed, and other influences commonly associated with scotch. In addtion, I still get a mildly raw quality at the finish, more like a tingle really, that seems to numb the mouth and lips beyond what I would expect. If there's such a thing as "blue collar, authentic scotch", I'd say this is it. I hereby recant my previous description "too much icing, not enough cake" as misleading. This is all cake, but it's like Angel Food with a dash of black pepper on top.

Nevertheless, I am now on my second glass (neat, Glencairn blending glass) this afternoon. What I intended as some combination of redirection and penance has turned out to be surprisingly enjoyable.

Now I'm faced with a delightful quandary. The next time I break out a bottle of whisk(e)y, will it be one of the other scotch blends (e.g., Famous Grouse or Johnnie Walker Black Label) that I liked rather more than Teacher's a while back, or will I give Jimmy's namesake another chance to remind me why I once called it my Numero Uno in the "Best Buy Bourbon" category?

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[tdelling]

>If there's such a thing as "blue collar, authentic scotch", I'd say this is it.

I love that sentence and I really enjoyed your post!

Note to the reader: prepare yourself for opinionated overgeneralizations!

Here goes:

I think it's true that in America, most scotch is sold to pretentious snobby jerks

who don't know anything about whisk/e/y, but think that they do. I also think

it's true that most bourbon is sold to the common man who doesn't know

anything about whisk/e/y, and that doesn't bother him at all... as a matter of

fact, if the drink is a little rough, all the better.

The difference between scotch and bourbon is as much a cultural one as

it is about taste. Bourbon is for the authentic, blue collar man. Scotch is for

the white collar dufus with no soul. Thus says the American consumer.

(apologies for stating the obvious)

Tim

[CL]

Amen. While in WV recently, I bought a few bottles of some expensive stuff that I can't get here in NC (Elmer T. Lee SB, Evan Williams Millenium, the Fox, Sazerac Rye) at a good sized store in Charleston, WV, the capital. Wouldn't you know that the Sazerac and the Fox didn't have prices and the girl at the counter couldn't find them in her book.

When I went to the register, no one was in line, but, while I was waiting for them to tell me what I owed them, a few people backed up behind me. I looked at them and apologized, saying that none of the bottles on the shelf for those two labels were marked.

The guy behind me, with the work of many hard years showing on this face, had a bottle of Early Times in the plastic bottle. I know this man deserved a drink more than I did.

As the girl went to find the prices from the manager, I took matters into my own hands and looked the prices up in the book at her register. Poor thang couldn't understand that rye whiskey was a separate category. Judging by where she left the book open, she was wasting her time in the blended price list.

I quickly resolved the issue, called her back and cringed as the total was $127 for four bottles. Yes, I felt guilty and imagined/feared the cold stare of the patrons in line behind me. I know that I am overplaying this guilt thing. The folks behind probably didn't give a rat's a** what I paid for what as long as they could get their own goods paid for and get on their way home!

[Speedy_John]

"The difference between scotch and bourbon is as much a cultural one as

it is about taste. Bourbon is for the authentic, blue collar man. Scotch is for

the white collar dufus with no soul."

I'm sorry, Tim, but I disagree. There are plenty of "authentic, blue collar" men (and women) in America (and especially Scotland) who drink scotch. Yes, quality scotch costs more than quality bourbon, but that has more to do with the incredibly high taxes distillers pay in the UK and the import duties and taxes imposed on scotch coming into the US, than it does on "pricing it for snobs." And, let's not forget, most "authentic, blue collar" men are not drinking Booker's, Blanton's or Pappy Van Winkle 20yo; they're most likely drinking Ten High, Jim Beam White Label and (America's other favorite "bourbon") Jack Daniels. Just as with single malt scotch, high-end bourbons are drunk by, for the most part, either (1) enthusiasts like us, (2) folks who like an occasional drink and can afford the good stuff, or (3) status seekers.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you don't like scotch, fine. I never argue about personal taste. But, just because one person don't like a particular style of whiskey doesn't give that person the right to make sweeping generalizations about those who do enjoy it. I happen to enjoy scotch very much, as much as I do bourbon (and Irish whiskey, for that matter). I do not consider myself to be a "snobby jerk" nor a "white collar dufus with no soul." I work both a full-time job and a part-time job to support my family (and my whiskey "hobby").

It's funny. I read a number of scotch-related boards on the Web and I've never seen a scotch drinker--even if he hates bourbon--put down bourbon drinkers. If anything, it's those bourbon drinkers who constantly put down scotch drinkers that come off sounding like snobby jerks.

And that's a shame, because most folks (including Tim) who contribute to this board strike me as being pretty decent people, people I would like to share time with over a bottle of good whiskey. I think it would be a good idea for all of us to keep in mind that taste preferences are a personal thing and cannot be argued, and that making generalizations about those who don't see things our way says more about us than those we disagree with.

Excuse me while I climb down from my soapbox.

SpeedyJohn

[jbutler]

I'm in agreement with most all of what you say here John, so I suppose this reply is really an addendum.

For many folks, the term "bourbon" conjurs up images of biker gangs, David Lee Roth leaping across the stage with his ass cheeks hanging out of his pants, and so forth ... you get the point. One could assert that in order to achieve the status and following the scotch industry has, the bourbon industry would need to shed it's "bad boy" image.

I feel that rather they should play this image up. Harley Davidson has done it with tremendous success. At least here in the SF bay area, there are huge numbers of brand new Harleys being driven by white color types who desperately want an element of the outlaw in their lives. The local Harley shop has a waiting list.

I'm not in any hurry to see Microsoft producing bourbon, but I believe that the baby boomers in particular have money to spend on bourbon ... they just need to be convinced it will advance their social status, and perhaps increase their virility

[tdelling]

>>"The difference between scotch and bourbon is as much a cultural one as

>>it is about taste. Bourbon is for the authentic, blue collar man. Scotch is for

>>the white collar dufus with no soul."

>I'm sorry, Tim, but I disagree. There are plenty of "authentic, blue collar" men

>...who drink scotch.

It's funny, I when I was proofreading my post, I thought to myself "why am

I writing this?" And I decided that I should post it because I was just so

taken with the Dave Morefield (bluesbassdad)'s line:

If there's such a thing as "blue collar, authentic scotch", I'd say this is it.

That line just crystallized for me the huge cultural gap that exists between

bourbon drinkers and scotch drinkers. So I dashed out two paragraphs.

In the first paragraph, I said that most people who buy whisk/e/y aren't educated

consumers with highly developed palates. Which I think is true. Talking

to people at liquor stores, duty free shops, even at Whiskey Fest (see

footnote for amusing anecdote), I'm convinced of this. It used to upset

me, but now it makes my happy: all of these people are keeping the high

end spirits market in business! Without them, the great whiskies I love

wouldn't exist!

In my second paragraph, I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough. I ended

the paragraph with "Thus says the American consumer." The stereotypes

of bourbon and scotch drinkers that I outlined are not *my* beliefs. They

are the beliefs of the people whose beliefs matter: those who do most

of the buying.

One of the things that all whisk/e/y lovers have to confront is that the

business is marketing-driven. Image is everything. The people who

do most of the buying are doing so based on image. It is inescapable.

I didn't mean to bash scotch drinkers or bourbon drinkers, or to put

anyone down. I'm a scotch drinker! As a matter of fact, I have more

scotch than I have bourbon! My post was merely my was of trying

to elucidate the cultural gap between "most" bourbon drinkers and

"most" scotch drinkers. It's my feeling that anyone who appreciates

great whiskies is in the (ignorable from a marketing and product

development standpoint) minority.

>And that's a shame, because most folks (including Tim) who contribute to this

>board strike me as being pretty decent people, people I would like to share time

>with over a bottle of good whiskey.

I feel the same way. If anyone here ever finds themselves in the unfortunate

position of being in central Illinois, they're certainly welcome to come over to my

house. We'll drink whisk/e/y and listen to old 78s all night.

Tim

Footnote regarding WhiskeyFest:

Here's my favorite line: a guy is at the Jamison table talking to an Irish girl with the

most charming accent you've ever heard, drinking a delightfully light, high-end

Jamison bottling, and after listening to the girl give her little two minute

talk, he asks,"Is this bourbon?" I about died.

[ratcheer]

That reminds me of the day last fall when I found my Old Forester Birthday Bourbon. I had not been able to get it at my suburban ABC store. I work downtown, so one day I decided to see if I could find it at a downtown ABC store.

I couldn't find any on the shelves, but I decided if I was already there, I might as well ask for it. Sure enough, they had some in the store room. She told me to get in line, wait my turn, and when it was my turn she would go back and get it.

There were two lines, each about eight customers deep. All hard working, fairly poor people. When I got to the front, I asked how much each bottle was, and it was $38 each. I asked for two bottles. Everybody was looking at me, but they were all nice. I was very self-conscious, though.

BTW, there are hardly ever even eight customers in the entire store where I usually go. Business is hopping downtown (for cheap vodka, gin, etc).

Tim

[ratcheer]

Okay, I am not trying to generalize, here, but has anyone else noticed the "Balvenie guy" ads? I see them several times a week in the Wall Street Journal. They are purposely playing up to an upper-class, life of leisure snob image to sell their various hooty snooty scotches. I.e., Double Wood, Port Wood, 21-yr old, etc.

That said, I would like to try some of their scotch.

Tim

[bobbyc]

I've never felt self conscious at the places that I buy liquor from. Sometimes the checkout girls are taken aback, but generally they see the stuff flying out the doors all day. The biggest haul I made on a particular one and I got 8 at once, about $ 312.00 . No one gave it a second notice. I think the oddest look I got was when I bought a bottle of 20Y Hirsch. When I bought a Pappy 23 it was no different to the clerk if I had got a Pepsi and a Clark Bar.

[Speedy_John]

--They are purposely playing up to an upper-class, life of leisure snob image to sell their various hooty snooty scotches.--

I don't know if they are aiming for a "snob image," but they are playing up to those in the higher income brackets. As they should. After all, who are the ones buying bottles that cost $30 and up? The answer (again): (1) whisky enthusiasts; (2) those who have the cabbage to afford "the good stuff"; and (3) status seekers. Why should Balvenie waste its time and money targeting those in lower income brackets when such consumers don't buy $30 bottles of whisky?

And, let's be honest: aren't bourbon producers using a similar strategy to sell their single-barrel and small batch bottlings? Aren't they, too, trying to reach those in upper income brackets by projecting the image of their bourbon as part of an upper-class, leisurely lifestyle? Of course they are. They want their high-end whiskeys to have the same cachet as single malt scotch. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I'm concerned.

And, Tim, do try Balvenie. The produce some very nice malts. The 10yo is pretty good and the 15yo single barrel can be very good (although I had some 15yo that reminded me of wet wool--blaaa!) My favorite Balvenie is the Double Wood 12yo. It's aged in old bourbon casks for most of its maturation, then is finished in old sherry casks for about 8 months or so. It is very, very good. I've also tried their 21yo port wood finish. It, too, is quite good, but I thought the wine notes were too prominent and overshadowed the Balvenie "character" a wee bit. Still, all are worth at least trying.

SpeedyJohn

[bluesbassdad]

Just a footnote or two to my earlier comments:

Last night I didn't notice anything that I would call a "medicine" taste.

Compared to the Teacher's Highland Cream that I drank the day before, the JW is fuller, richer, and less lively on the palate and at the finish. The finish is much more persistent (and consistent) as well.

The most remarkable thing I noticed is the distinct aroma of gingerbread. I was drinking from my Glencairn taster's glass, filled to just below the fattest part of the bowl, and I was sniffing from an inch or two away from the top of the glass. I found that the distance was critical in detecting this aroma.

Finally, as I sat, sniffed, and sipped, I couldn't help but notice the elegance of the JW Black Label bottle and how it conveys a very different image than the Teacher's bottle, with its stark label. I don't want to fire up the "blue collar" discussion again, but it's pretty clear to me that the JW is aimed at a different consumer, one who may well be a connoiseur of fine whisky, but who also wants to make sure that even the uninitiated will know it when they look at his liquor shelf.

Yours truly,

Dave Morefield

[Marvin]

Dave,

I can appreciate the fact that you try other whiskys, other than bourbon, and there are a few scotchs that I am very fond of-Johnny Walker Black is an excellent scotch but is not my favorite by any means. I am particularly fond of Abelour 21 YO, port finished, and A'bunadh, and of course McCallan. All ranges of these suit me just fine. I think I will give you a toast as I am drinking A'bunadh right now! There is times when nothing will do but a wee little dram of scotch. But having said that I must be honest with you, bourbon has them all beat, hands down.

Cheers,

Marvin

[Marvin]

Jim,

A while back I had 17 people visiting from Scotland and let me tell you, you couldn't get them to drink scotch if you held a gun on them. All they wanted was bourbon and they could not imagine why bourbon is not advertised any more than it is. One other thing I noticed, when they started drinking bourbon it seemed to me they moved up a notch. They also found out they got a "litte tipsy" a lot quicker.

Cheers,

Marvin

[Marvin]

One too many drinks-my apologies- I meant to say Balvene instead of Abelour on my last post. OH!!!!!!!!!BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!Life sure gets confusing after a few drinks, while thinking of one and drinking another.

Cheers,

Marvin

[Bob]

Speedy John,

Balvenie Double Wood is a very good Single Malt. It has a very nice flavor profile. It's the only product from Balvenie that I've tried thus far tho.

Bob