Sazerac acquires Old Taylor.

[Josh]

Is that bottle of old OGD the one you had on Saturday?

If it is, now that you mention it, it tasted more like an old OT than OGD.

That particular bottle was Amy's but I have one from the same (former) dusty stash.

Anyway, you're absolutely right. It did taste a lot like an ND OT. I thought I had just been spoiled by the current OGD, but it definately has that weird funky finish and the butterscotch that the OT's had.

Regarding the Turkey sale, that's what I thought initially, Kevin, but in their news releases Campari seems to be really excited about owning WT, finishing the upgrades to the distillery and taking it places.

[p_elliott]

Are you refering to the transaction between Pernod-Ricard and Grouppo Campari?

I thought it was just a French company selling WT to a Italian company, not because either of them 'cared,' but that it was a fiscally beneficial to both parties.

Grouppo Campari is talking like they want to make WT one of it's flagship companies could work out very well for us. I was very sceptical at first but now have high hopes.

I think this OT thing will too I don't think they would have bought it if they didn't have a plan.

[pepcycle]

IF BT has any balls at all, they will acquire the OT site at any cost.

I don't care if they make an ounce of whiskey there, but agritourism growth requires every distillery to keep expanding their Bourbon Trail offering.

Bed and Breakfasts on site?

Dude Distillery Camps?

Distillery Hotel?

Culinary School?

C'mon we haven't even broken the surface of the potential.

BF started this trend with Labrot and Graham. They never anticipated the consumer reaction.

Look at MM's upgrades since the Beam Takeover.

OT without the site is a hollow shell of purchase.

BTW, doesn't BT have a space problem since they sold their warehouse to make office buildings during the glut?

I remember a thread going back a few years where Roger asked the question about bringing back old brands that had some glory and this group asked for OT and OC to be brought back at their original shelf location, not a Ten High, bottom shelf, Cat and Dog Label.

[OscarV]

I wonder at what capacity the Tom Moore distillery was working at?

When Sazerac bought them did they mention anything about expansion?

Maybe we are in for a lot of goodies, I'd be happy just to have Weller 12yo on the shelf.

[jburlowski]

I'd be happy just to have Weller 12yo on the shelf.

[ThomasH]

I don't think Tom Moore has much space left in their warehouse. During our April tour, the guide mentioned that the warehouses were something like 96% full. She also mentioned that TM has 500,000 cases of finished product on hand at all times. Some these aren't whiskey but the majority are!

Thomas

[cowdery]

Sazerac has announced it plans to put $9 million into expanding Frankfort and $10.5 million into expanding Owensboro. Nothing about Bardstown (Tom Moore) or Fredericksburg (A. Smith Bowman/Virginia Gentleman).

I don't know what they're buying for the $9 MM at Frankfort, but it's not another still. Harlen has indicated to me in the past that they need a few things to practically increase production. I don't remember what specificially, but on the order of additional fermenters, cookers or grain mills, that sort of thing. Mainly they need someplace to put the stuff, i.e., warehouses; and bottling capacity.

There is a storm-damaged warehouse in Owensboro that I assume is empty, since it has a huge, gaping hole in it. I don't know how full the rest of them are. Tom Moore is full from the eighth barrel up, but the lower levels just have brandy on them and aren't full.

They have announced they will add 300,000 square feet to the Owensboro facility, but I suspect that's the bottling house, which is the main thing there, but it could refer to warehouses. That would be a good place to put more warehouses, since that's where they're putting their additional bottling capacity.

[cowdery]

Back to Effen and Taylor. Beam says Effen does about $10 million a year in business. Does Taylor? I doubt it and no one says it was a direct swap. Beam says it intends to invest in Effen, to see if they can make it a major brand. BT hasn't said that about Old Taylor. I'm not criticizing BT, I don't know if it was deliberate, but neither company's press release spun it as a swap. That mostly came from the media. (Okay, me.) Just as in sports trades, there's often money on one side of the deal too, but they still call them trades.

I think Beam mainly bought Effen but threw in Old Taylor because BT asked and Beam said, "huh? what? Do we own a brand called 'Old Taylor'? We do? Okay, sure, why not. Deal."

Cash is tight and maybe that was a way to fill in the gap between the asking and selling prices. I think it is win-win because OT is worth more to BT than it would be to Beam, and the same with Effen.

[sku]

I think Beam mainly bought Effen but threw in Old Taylor because BT asked and Beam said, "huh? what? Do we own a brand called 'Old Taylor'? We do? Okay, sure, why not. Deal."

:lol:

[jburlowski]

Chuck, you're right, who knows. But the folks at Sazerac / BT are not dummies. Nor are the folks at Beam. I believe both sides reached a deal that made sense for their respective interests.

[Bourbon Geek]

It seems to me that Beam never really cared much about Old Taylor ... when they got it, it wasn't even considered important enough to retain it's mash bill (while Old Grand Dad was) ... just another way to sell Jim Beam juice when it got a little older.

Now that they apparently are having trouble with their lay down strategy with Knob Creek, getting rid of the 6+ year old Old Taylor gives them a little more juice... for the next 6 years ...that they can now use to relieve their shortage. I wouldn't be surprised if this designate now goes in to Beam Black ... leaving a similar quantity of Beam Black designate for use in Knob Creek. ... which could all be a good part of the real reason they sold the brand to Buffalo Trace in the first place. If I had a choice between taking the profit from Old Taylor or the profit from a similar quantity of Knob Creek ... I'd take the KC every time.

[jburlowski]

It seems to me that Beam never really cared much about Old Taylor ... when they got it, it wasn't even considered important enough to retain it's mash bill (while Old Grand Dad was) ... just another way to sell Jim Beam juice when it got a little older.

Now that they apparently are having trouble with their lay down strategy with Knob Creek, getting rid of the 6+ year old Old Taylor gives them a little more juice... for the next 6 years ...that they can now use to relieve their shortage. I wouldn't be surprised if this designate now goes in to Beam Black ... leaving a similar quantity of Beam Black designate for use in Knob Creek. ... which could all be a good part of the real reason they sold the brand to Buffalo Trace in the first place. If I had a choice between taking the profit from Old Taylor or the profit from a similar quantity of Knob Creek ... I'd take the KC every time.

I don't follow your logic. The deal to BT included enough Beam juice to cover the OT market until BT can ramp up its own production. So it's not clear that Beam gets anything to relieve its shortage.

[Josh]

I don't follow your logic. The deal to BT included enough Beam juice to cover the OT market until BT can ramp up its own production. So it's not clear that Beam gets anything to relieve its shortage.

But in the long term it will definately help with the shortage. Plus we don't know how much juice that actually is. It could be six months worth, who knows. As many have said, BT undoubtably has a plan. One which I'm sure we will hear soon.

If only we had someone here who worked at BT...

[jburlowski]

But in the long term it will definately help with the shortage. Plus we don't know how much juice that actually is. It could be six months worth, who knows. As many have said, BT undoubtably has a plan. One which I'm sure we will hear soon.

If only we had someone here who worked at BT...

[Josh]

You're right that details weren't disclosed and I doubt if the BT employees who are members here will offer any up.

In his blog Chuck said the following:

"As an indication of the current shortage of fully aged bourbon, the sale included enough Beam whiskey to support the Taylor brand until Buffalo Trace can make it from their own stocks. (Old Taylor is a 6-year-old straight bourbon.) Both Beam and Trace make a lot of whiskey and Taylor is a small brand, so clearly supplies are strained enough that whiskey needed to be part of the deal." (emphais added)

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2009/06/sazerac-acquires-old-taylor.html

[Bourbon Geek]

I'm sure there was some juice involved ... there almost always is. I just suspect it was less than the full amount required to support Taylor for 6 full years.

[cowdery]

Chuck, you're right, who knows. But the folks at Sazerac / BT are not dummies. Nor are the folks at Beam. I believe both sides reached a deal that made sense for their respective interests.

I absolutely agree.

[cowdery]

I'm sure there was some juice involved ... there almost always is. I just suspect it was less than the full amount required to support Taylor for 6 full years.

Dave is right and I'm sorry if I gave a contrary impression. When inventory accompanies a brand sale, the idea is to cover that brand until the acquiring company can get it into their production cycle, but everything is a negotiation and it's entirely possible, even likely considering the KC situation, that part of the objective was to get rid of a label with a six-year age statement on it, however small KC's volume, much like Tom Moore juice was freed-up by making Ten High a blend rather than a KSBW.

[jburlowski]

Dave is right and I'm sorry if I gave a contrary impression. When inventory accompanies a brand sale, the idea is to cover that brand until the acquiring company can get it into their production cycle, but everything is a negotiation and it's entirely possible, even likely considering the KC situation, that part of the objective was to get rid of a label with a six-year age statement on it, however small KC's volume, much like Tom Moore juice was freed-up by making Ten High a blend rather than a KSBW.

Chuck, you are right, the truth probably lies somewhere between the poles: very little inventory vs six years worth of OT sales.

A couple of questions:

OT was a fairly minor brand. Any guesstimate of the annual sales?

Assuming it was, at best, a second tier label: if Beam has a shortage of aged inventory, why not simply do as has happened with so many other labels in recent years ---go to NAS and use younger juice?

[tommyboy38]

Maybe BT doesn't want much juice. I doubt that they want to put out something that taste like Jim Beam. Maybe just enough to get started and slowly blend it with their own product until they get the profile they want.

P.S. - Anyone tried OT lately?

[cowdery]

OT is such a minor brand, they probably didn't want the expense of changing the label.

OT probably has very steady and predictable sales, since it's not promoted, but its opportunity cost has gone up as aged whiskey has become more dear.

As has already been pointed out, BT can do things with OT that Beam either can't or doesn't want to do, because of Taylor's association with the distillery.

The more we talk about this the more I think we may be making too much of it. I'm not sure BT has any grand plans for OT, but they saw a chance to get a brand they could get some value from at very little cost, so they took it.

[mobourbon]

From yesterday until Aug. 1, 1800 barrels of Old Taylor are being trucked to BT. On Wed. July 29 from 4 - 7 PM we are having a "Welcome back Taylor" party at BT. It's open to the public.

[Bourbon Geek]

If the 1800 barrels represents the total and final transfer, it would represent about 50,000 to 55,000 cases. I gotta believe that this is Waaaaaaay less than the 6 year sales volume.

[jburlowski]

Based on this discusssion, I picked up a bottle of the current OT last week. Only, $12.29 for 750 ml.

My impressions? This is barely bourbon. And it's hard to believe that its been aged six years. Seems more like GNS with "real artificial bourbon flavor" added. Thin and uninteresting would be an overstatement. I'd take JBW over this any day.

A neighbor couple stopped over. The wife said she doesn't like the taste of whiskey so I offered her an OT and Seven. Her response... "This is smooth; I can't even taste the booze!" A niche market I suppose....

I hope BT doesn't get too identified with OT until they can put their own juice in the bottle.

[ILLfarmboy]

A neighbor couple stopped over. The wife said she doesn't like the taste of whiskey so I offered her an OT and Seven. Her response... "This is smooth; I can't even taste the booze!" A niche market I suppose....

I hope BT doesn't get too identified with OT until they can put their own juice in the bottle.

I'll never forget the time someone in a bar recommended Crown Royal and Coke in lue of Jack and Coke, same rationale, you can't taste the whiskey.

I'm glad the semi-dusty pint of OT I bought wasn't that thin on taste. I thought it was a bit better than current Beam White.

OT must sell in regional pockets with a long established record in that locale. I've noticed that OT is seen, around here at least, in the less than good neighborhoods down in Peoria. I can't say I have ever seen OT anywhere else.