Re-barrel VOB BIB

[theDon]

We just finished a rye whiskey aged in 5 gallon barrels and it went from White Dog to finished in 4 months (and to tell you the truth, it was best about 2 weeks before we pulled it).

Another good question. i have some unaged whiskey I would like to age as well. Should I do it before or after rebarreling already aged bourbon? I'm not thinking in a purist's mind set, just want flavorful results from the unaged stock and I don't have the cash to buy a second barrel.

[kickert]

Another good question. i have some unaged whiskey I would like to age as well. Should I do it before or after rebarreling already aged bourbon? I'm not thinking in a purist's mind set, just want flavorful results from the unaged stock and I don't have the cash to buy a second barrel.

I have a few thoughts on barreling and the influence of the barrel. I basically find a barrel does three things which corresponds to layers of a charred barrel. The first layer (the char itself) serves as a filter to mellow bourbon and it also imparts the smoky/earthy notes. The second layer (the caramelized "red" layer) adds the sweet vanillas/caramels/tobacco notes. The third layer (the regular wood) adds the tannic/woody/oaky notes. The older the bourbon the more deeply these layers contribute. (i.e. a young bourbon is often mellowed, but has not picked up the sweetness yet while a 12 year old has picked up the sweetness, but not the oaky tannins a 20 year old would).

Small barrels do great at imparting the characteristics of the first and third layer, but not so good at second. I have found small barrels taste much different than larger barrels and I think it has to do with the way the spirit interacts with the layers.

I say all that to say this: I would go with the unaged first. For starters, the most drastic changes occur on the first fill and then drop exponentially on each subsequent fill and the unaged would need the most barrel influence. Second, I think the aged stuff would benefit from a barrel that has already been used. That way it will slow the process down so more of deeper flavors can be absorbed instead of just quickly infusing the oaky/woody/smoky notes.

When we use large barrels we go with a 4 char, but when we use small barrels we go with a 3 char. The reason why is because small barrels are too aggressive too quickly. By aging something in it first, you can get the same effect and ultimately have more control over your spirit. Plus, it is amazing to see what a new barrel does to white dog after only one day.

[theDon]

Wow, very informative and thorough answer. I will go with the unaged first. Not going to say where it came from. Hopefully the results will be tasty. Thanks

[ethangsmith]

It took me THIS long to find this thread? I plan on rebarreling some Old Grand-Dad BIB this spring.

[ggilbertva]

Ben - great response. My plan is to re-barrel again after the VOB and hopefully have the second run in wood longer than the first. The VOB has definitely picked up some wood notes which surprised me but after your post, it makes sense as to why I'm tasting that. It will interesting to see what happens when the weather gets warmer.

[theDon]

Well my Tom Moore BIB project starts tomorrow. I have a 2 liter barrel, which fits a 1.75 perfectly. I will set aside a 50ml sample straight out of the bottle. That will make it an even 17 - 100 ml samples that I will pull every 5 days for this first run. 50 ml will be for drinking and 50 ml will be bottled for later reference. This will last just 5 days short of 3 months. I too will try a longer aging on the next project, same whiskey, same amount of samples. Any suggestions before I go forward? Greg....Buler???

[kickert]

You have two ways to go about it. If you want to maximize the impact of the barrel as the experiment goes on then be sure to rotate the barrel so teh bung is not always up. That will maximize the contact the spirit has with "fresh" char. If you are wanting to get a feel a spirit would taste if you didn't touch it for XX amount of time, then don't rotate.

[theDon]

You have two ways to go about it. If you want to maximize the impact of the barrel as the experiment goes on then be sure to rotate the barrel so teh bung is not always up. That will maximize the contact the spirit has with "fresh" char. If you are wanting to get a feel a spirit would taste if you didn't touch it for XX amount of time, then don't rotate.

I was thinking about rotating maybe a quarter turn everyday. I will leave it alone the day I take the sample, that way every 5 days it will be back in the bung up position. Thanks!

Oh and unless there are other suggestions I won't post here anymore. If I decide to post results I will start another thread. I didn't mean to hijack your project thread Greg. Sorry bud!

[cowdery]

I commend these projects. It's fun and informative.

But three things happen in the barrel and with this short aging, even if it is reaging, you're only getting one of them. The one you're getting is the dissolving of compounds in the wood and the integration of those compounds (tannins, lignin, etc.) into the spirit.

What you're missing, for the most part, are the effects of evaporation and chemical processes such as oxidation. These can only happen in time.

[loose proton]

Though it's a small factor in bourbon flavor, also getting adsorption of compounds to the charcoal. In the first barrel, this can be a good thing as may get rid of something unwanted; but in the second barrel??? Possibly this is nothing to consider for second barrel...

[ggilbertva]

Well, I finally dumped my Very Old Barton that had been sitting in a 5 liter barrel since November of 2009. On July 30th I poured what was left in the barrel into two 750ml bottles. If you look back at the original post, I pumped a little over 4.5L into that barrel and managed to pull out 1.5L. Now, some of the loss was sampling over those 8 months (yum), sharing with family and friends as it matured and then lost distillate in the barrel itself during the hot summer. The remaining loss was in fact due to evaporation. Even so, that's a whole lot of loss over 8 months.

To say the end product changed over the original bourbon would be an understatement. Because of the size of the barrel, there was a lot of contact with new charred oak and that really had a heavy influence on the bourbon early on. In fact, I thought maybe it was ruined because it was so overly woody but alas, my patience and warmer weather balanced out the oak (which is still there but not overly dominant), reduced sweetness, added a smokiness and char influence and because of the evaporation, the proof definitely increased.

The color is moderately dark; almost like weak coffee. Nosing the bourbon produces some wood notes, slight smoke and has a finish that is reminiscent of a bold barrel proof bourbon taken down in proof that lingers with a slight tannic oak aftertaste. I'm pleased with the outcome and have enjoyed a number of pours from this bottle. I've got family and friends asking for samples but I'm having to beat them off with a stick since what's left over is pretty minimal.

The day after I emptied the barrel, I refilled it with Evan Williams Bottled in Bond which is a pretty decent bourbon all by itself.

[OscarV]

Maybe you should have timed this so as to empty the barrel near the end of winter, then there would be less bourbon in the wood and more for you.

[sailor22]

Glad your Barton project turned out good - it gives me hope.

Last January some friends and I put about 24 gallons of Bourbon and Rye into a barrel that had previously held Eagle Rare for 10 years. We did a vatting of many handles of Evan Williams 1783, some 750's of Saz Jr along with two handles of WSR and WT101. The barrel is in a barn here in North Florida. This summer has been excruciatingly hot and humid and I am pretty sure I can feel the barrel being much lighter when I roll it. I expect we have suffered a lot of evaporation.

We plan on sampling next January but not necessarily emptying it so we won't be able to accurately measure the loss.

I wonder how much we are modifying the taste?

Would you expect more or less evaporation from rotating the barrel weekly?

[ggilbertva]

Maybe you should have timed this so as to empty the barrel near the end of winter, then there would be less bourbon in the wood and more for you.

[OscarV]

Last January some friends and I put about 24 gallons of Bourbon and Rye into a barrel that had previously held Eagle Rare for 10 years.

Would you expect more or less evaporation from rotating the barrel weekly?

[sailor22]

we have been rolling it around a few min and then giving it about a third turn every week.