What happens to bad barrels?

[ethangsmith]

If a barrel is aged and then opened and the whiskey inside is not up to standards when it is ready to be dumped, what happens to the substandard whiskey? I know Jack Daniels often markets some of the less-good barrels as the green label stuff, but what do other distilleries do? And what happens if they open a barrel and the contents somehow really went bad that it's not even drinkable? I would imaging dumping ~53gal of whiskey would cut into profits a bit.

[loose proton]

It's $$$. It goes in a bottle. A lot of the labels we like are blends of barrels and they often hope to blend to get a consistent flavor from year to year. That blend includes barrels some may not like as well as others. Keep in mind, different people have different tastes. A barrel I love, you may not like at all.

[Sin]

It's $$$. It goes in a bottle. A lot of the labels we like are blends of barrels and they often hope to blend to get a consistent flavor from year to year. That blend includes barrels some may not like as well as others. Keep in mind, different people have different tastes. A barrel I love, you may not like at all.

I think he means about whiskey that didn't "mature" or "age," but whiskey that rotted in the barrel. I don't think that's really possible, but like what was said, the 'less quality' stuff is saved and blended with a different label or saved for blending with the original label in mind.

[barturtle]

In general it all gets rationed away in various bottlings. JD Green is actually whiskey from the lowest floors, an area of the rickhouse that they don't use for JD Black, SB or Gentleman. In a worst case scenario, it would be sent to be redistilled for industrial alcohol (or maybe vodka, not much difference) and the empty barrel sold off just like any other. The losses would be minimal. Remember the biggest cost of selling whiskey (after taxes) is packaging (or maybe marketing or shipping, but it's not the raw materials, that's for certain)

[ethangsmith]

Interesting. I know that most places blend several barrels to hide the abnormalities, but I was unsure what happend to the real bad stuff (went bad in the barrel, didn't mature, some type of contamination, etc.). How often do barrels spring a leak before they are mature and what happens to that whiskey? I know that some seepage, Angel's share, is normal, but what happens when they begin to drip?

[barturtle]

Barrels are extremely well made these days. Only Buffalo Trace still claims to have people chase after leaks, and IIRC they only do that annually.

[SMOWK]

JD Green is actually whiskey from the lowest floors, an area of the rickhouse that they don't use for JD Black, SB or Gentleman.

Doesn't the ORVW 23/114 come from the lower floors?

[IronHead]

I may just be talking out my head, here but I would think anything 23 years old would almost have to come from the lower floors if they expect to have anything left to bottle.

[independant]

When I visited HH's dump room they were using suction to empty the barrels. I am not sure of how long it took to empty a barrel but I was impressed by how fast that a barrel was emptied and how fast they moved on to another barrel. They had 3 barrels in a line and while one was being emptied the other was having its bung removed and the last was being moved out. A very stream lined process. All that said it would have taken an army of people drinking around the clock and getting very drunk to sample every barrel that was passing through before being dumped. I believe it all gets dumped and the bad barrel gets mixed in.

[Gillman]

I would like to think though that a truly off barrel is exempted from the batching and mingling process, one that is musty, say, or very spirity. These barrels are probably re-distilled.

Gary

[callmeox]

At one of the KBF functions this past year Jim Rutledge shared a story about a bad run that Four Roses had a number of years ago due to musty/contaminated corn. He said that one of their QA folks who is really sensitive to must picked it up and they rejected an entire batch. They alerted the other dsitillers as well to look out for the bad grain. Due to the nature of the musty contaminated batch, every piece of equipment had to be cleaned or sterilized and the batch was sold off to be redistilled a vodka. This was all done at a considerable expense.

If a distiller is prepared to kill an entire run due to an off flavor, killing a single off barrel is an easy choice and is just a cost of doing business.

[bourbonv]

The old Hill and Hill distillery in Shively (behind the old Seagram's distillery) now owned by a company that makes industrial alcohol. They have a contract with all of the distilleries to purchase bad barrels for redistillation. The answer to your question about bad barrels is that they are now fueling your car or truck.

Mike Veach

[ethangsmith]

What happens to the barrels once they are emptied? I know at least for bourbon you can't re-use a barrel.

[callmeox]

They are sold for aging other spirits or beverages which don't have the same new barrel rule that bourbon has.

Tequila, malt whisky, Canadian whisky, beer, rum and others are aged in old bourbon barrels.

[p_elliott]

The bourbon is sampled long before dumping day you can't sample every barrel right before you dump it.

The old barrels are also used for aging scotch.

[ethangsmith]

I always wondered why there were not tons of bourbon barrels everywhere. I see real cheap whiskey called Banker's Club blended whiskey on the shelf in my local state store. First of all, what is it exactly? And second of all, is this stuff aged in re-used barrels?

[barturtle]

You may wish to familiarize yourself with the BATF regs particularly section 5.22 (

[ILLfarmboy]

At one of the KBF functions this past year Jim Rutledge shared a story about a bad run that Four Roses had a number of years ago due to musty/contaminated corn.

[Special Reserve]

EtOHchem...don't the distillers do QA on incoming materials?

[ethangsmith]

So are bad batches often the fault of bad products being distilled?

Also, I read over the blended whiskey section of the article and I had some difficulty following it. What I gathered from it is that blended whiskey (Like Banker's Club) is a blend of several different types of whiskeys (bourbon, rye, malt, corn). Is that correct? They talk about adding "neutral spirits" too. What exactly is that? And why is the stuff so cheap?

[callmeox]

So are bad batches often the fault of bad products being distilled?

Also, I read over the blended whiskey section of the article and I had some difficulty following it. What I gathered from it is that blended whiskey (Like Banker's Club) is a blend of several different types of whiskeys (bourbon, rye, malt, corn). Is that correct? They talk about adding "neutral spirits" too. What exactly is that? And why is the stuff so cheap?

Paging Chuck Cowdery's book, paging Chuck Cowdery's book!

Here's a great introductory resource for the bourbon world. Once you read it, you will keep it around as a reference.

http://www.amazon.com/Bourbon-Straight-Unfiltered-American-Whiskey/dp/0975870300/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262138489&sr=8-1

[ethangsmith]

I keep seeing it. I bought one of his little newsletters he publishes and found it to be very informative. I may have to get the book too.

[callmeox]

Oh, and to answer your other question, neutral spirits are a product that has been distilled at a sufficiently high proof as to no longer carry any characteristics of the original fermented material.

Like....vodka.

Blended whiskey is whiskey of some sort, cut with vodka.

[ethangsmith]

And that's why it's cheaper since it is mixed with vodka? Some guy was trying to tell me that the original Michter's from Schaefferstown was just like Banker's Club blended whiskey. There's no way that's the truth.

The first time I saw blended whiskey on the shelf, it was my assumption that the manufacturer was buying sub-par or bad barrels from all the different whiskey makers and just blending them together to make some real oddball tasting stuff.

[jeff]

I would like to think that too Gary, but a few too many musty bottles of Buffalo Trace's whiskies has me thinking otherwise.

FWIW, I love most all of BT's labels, but they do put out some musty bottlings on occasion.

I would like to think though that a truly off barrel is exempted from the batching and mingling process, one that is musty, say, or very spirity. These barrels are probably re-distilled.

Gary