Why isn't Old Fitzgerald better?

[Josh]

There are few distilleries as respected around here as much as Heaven Hill. Their brands almost always deliver great value for money, even the upper-end offerings. Craig & Parker take quality seriously.

So I had been hoping that as soon as they got the kinks worked out of the Bernheim distillery and got enough aged wheat bourbon, the quality of the Old Fitz line would improve. The new 2000 EWSB, the first edition to be made at Bernheim, is very good, so I would expect that the Old Fitz would be back to being a quality bourbon by now.

But it's not. I was able to taste some current 1849 (ok, I bought it by mistake thinking it was a dusty) and it was just not up to snuff. A bit of delicate sweetness, giving way to some burn and a shallow bitter aftertaste. Just not good at all.

I do like the Bottled-in-Bond, but the rest of the line varies from crummy to dull and overpriced. So why isn't it better? HH knows how to make good whiskey. Do they just not care about wheaters? Is there some sort of techinal problem? Anybody have any ideas?

[The Boozer]

There are few distilleries as respected around here as much as Heaven Hill. Their brands almost always deliver great value for money, even the upper-end offerings. Craig & Parker take quality seriously.

So I had been hoping that as soon as they got the kinks worked out of the Bernheim distillery and got enough aged wheat bourbon, the quality of the Old Fitz line would improve. The new 2000 EWSB, the first edition to be made at Bernheim, is very good, so I would expect that the Old Fitz would be back to being a quality bourbon by now.

But it's not. I was able to taste some current 1849 (ok, I bought it by mistake thinking it was a dusty) and it was just not up to snuff. A bit of delicate sweetness, giving way to some burn and a shallow bitter aftertaste. Just not good at all.

I do like the Bottled-in-Bond, but the rest of the line varies from crummy to dull and overpriced. So why isn't it better? HH knows how to make good whiskey. Do they just not care about wheaters? Is there some sort of techinal problem? Anybody have any ideas?

I believe someone else mentioned on another thread that Craig & Parker are just not that interested in "wheaters". I thought EWSB is a rye bourbon?

Tim

[Josh]

I believe someone else mentioned on another thread that Craig & Parker are just not that interested in "wheaters". I thought EWSB is a rye bourbon?

Tim

Yeah, didn't mean to imply that EWSB was a wheater. I meant that it was proof that Bernheim can make very good whiskey.

[T Comp]

There are few distilleries as respected around here as much as Heaven Hill. Their brands almost always deliver great value for money, even the upper-end offerings. Craig & Parker take quality seriously.

So I had been hoping that as soon as they got the kinks worked out of the Bernheim distillery and got enough aged wheat bourbon, the quality of the Old Fitz line would improve. The new 2000 EWSB, the first edition to be made at Bernheim, is very good, so I would expect that the Old Fitz would be back to being a quality bourbon by now.

But it's not. I was able to taste some current 1849 (ok, I bought it by mistake thinking it was a dusty) and it was just not up to snuff. A bit of delicate sweetness, giving way to some burn and a shallow bitter aftertaste. Just not good at all.

I do like the Bottled-in-Bond, but the rest of the line varies from crummy to dull and overpriced. So why isn't it better? HH knows how to make good whiskey. Do they just not care about wheaters? Is there some sort of techinal problem? Anybody have any ideas?

Man will I jump on this bandwagon. I couldn't agree more! I'll throw in the Prime also, as being just as the 1849. In fairness, I haven't had the current Very Special and one of the cognoscenti (I think Murray) recently had good things to say, if I recall correctly. Also confouding is that the first releases of their BIB distilled at DSP 1 (circa 2001, and thanks to ggilbetva for the tip) are really good and superior to the current bottle stamped 09 BIB. Inquiring minds want to know?

[OscarV]

I believe someone else mentioned on another thread that Craig & Parker are just not that interested in "wheaters". I thought EWSB is a rye bourbon?

Tim

Yeah I posted that, I forgot where I heard it but I do remember thinking that it was a credible source.

Old Fitz just ain't good.

It's to bad because in the wheater segment there is only HH's OF and the Van Winkles.

And then there is the industry leader in the wheated bourbon segment which of course is the Rain Vodka company's Weller line, which has lost it's luster with me.

The Special Reserve is kinda bland.

The Old Weller 107 is kinda harsh.

The Weller 12yo is OK, but just that, OK. I see why it's only 24 bucks for a 12yo.

Last years WLarueW was hot.

And the Centennial was awesome so I guess that's why they dropped it.

Yes a hell of a lot more could be done in the wheated bourbon segment.

[callmeox]

It sounds to me like you need an evening with a bottle of Makers Mark to wake you up to the wonders of wheaters, Oscar. :grin:

[OscarV]

Yes a hell of a lot more could be done in the wheated bourbon segment.

It sounds to me like you need an evening with a bottle of Makers Mark to wake you up to the wonders of wheaters, Oscar. :grin:

I completely forgot about MM, I wonder why?

[jburlowski]

I believe someone else mentioned on another thread that Craig & Parker are just not that interested in "wheaters". I thought EWSB is a rye bourbon?

Tim

[OscarV]

Wasn't it reported somewhere here that when BT bought Tom Moore they discovered the Barton had also been making wheated bourbon?

[Josh]

What were they doing with it?

[ggilbertva]

Man will I jump on this bandwagon. I couldn't agree more! I'll throw in the Prime also, as being just as the 1849. In fairness, I haven't had the current Very Special and one of the cognoscenti (I think Murray) recently had good things to say, if I recall correctly. Also confouding is that the first releases of their BIB distilled at DSP 1 (circa 2001, and thanks to ggilbetva for the tip) are really good and superior to the current bottle stamped 09 BIB. Inquiring minds want to know?

I rummaged through the bunker and found my earlier Bernheim Old Fitz. Its bottling year was 2002. I picked up two of these bottles, both dated the same and the one I opened was quite good. I just recently picked up a 2006 and the color on this one is shades lighter than my '02 so suspect it's quite a bit younger than the earlier bottling.

It really is a shame that wheated bourbons have taken a bit of a downturn and aren't living up to their heritage.

[Old Lamplighter]

It really is a shame that wheated bourbons have taken a bit of a downturn and aren't living up to their heritage.

A little hard to understand, or, is most of the interest/demand for wheaters to be found here with the likes of us, the more dedicated and loyal crowd(?).

[Josh]

A little hard to understand, or, is most of the interest/demand for wheaters to be found here with the likes of us, the more dedicated and loyal crowd(?).

[barturtle]

What were they doing with it?

[Jono]

Luxco has Rebel Yell as a wheater....not that it improves the wheated selection any.

http://www.luxco.com/public/brands/brands.asp

I would agree with MM being better than Old Fitz 1849.

[OscarV]

When UDV split up Barton ended up with Kentucky Tavern, which at the time was a wheated bourbon. They may have kept it as such, and when Luxco bought the brand they also may have kept it as a wheater.

I looked in my bunker and I just happen to have a bottle of Kentucky Tavern.

I bought it in KY in 2006, the label says "The Aristocrat Of Bourbons".

If that's true then it was a bargain at around 10 bucks.

But seriously, was Kentucky Tavern trying to mimic S-W's OF with this wheater and the "Aristocrat" theme?

[Old Lamplighter]

For Weller and Van Winkle yes, but I think there is one exception. Maker's Mark. Which I would, frankly, rank above the current Old Fitz Prime & 1849, the latter at the same proof.

Absolutely right......like others, I keep forgetting bout MM.....don't know if that is a reflection of my senility or the whisky itself - or a combination of the two (but not with that particular bourbon).

[barturtle]

I looked in my bunker and I just happen to have a bottle of Kentucky Tavern.

I bought it in KY in 2006, the label says "The Aristocrat Of Bourbons".

If that's true then it was a bargain at around 10 bucks.

But seriously, was Kentucky Tavern trying to mimic S-W's OF with this wheater and the "Aristocrat" theme?

Both Kentucky Tavern and Rebel Yell were owned by UDV, the same as Old Fitz and Weller, so I wouldn't call it mimicking, so much as just using what you have on hand. While the Kentucky Tavern name goes back to the late 1800's, it wasn't part of UD until 1991. In '96 is was listed as a wheated bourbon (Regan). The New Bernhiem distillery was opened in 1992 and the big sell off was in '99.

[cowdery]

Kentucky Tavern was only a wheater for a very brief period long after the brand's heyday and the sale of Glenmore (and KT) to UDV. KT also briefly became a Kentucky Whiskey in some markets.

People keep trying to identify KT as a wheater, which is incorrect. It's a venerable, old, rye-recipe bourbon that briefly experimented with wheat, sort of like being gay in college.

Buffalo Trace recently began its first push on 1792 since acquiring Tom Moore, but otherwise they've been pretty quiet about the future of that distillery and its products.

[CorvallisCracker]

Buffalo Trace recently began its first push on 1792...

[barturtle]

Kentucky Tavern was only a wheater for a very brief period long after the brand's heyday and the sale of Glenmore (and KT) to UDV. KT also briefly became a Kentucky Whiskey in some markets.

People keep trying to identify KT as a wheater, which is incorrect. It's a venerable, old, rye-recipe bourbon that briefly experimented with wheat, sort of like being gay in college.

[cowdery]

It was in that neighborhood. Not before 1992, and Gary was researching his book mostly in 1995, so that's approximately the time frame. Barton bought Kentucky Tavern in 1995 and Jerry Dalton left in 1998, so Jerry might not have known everything that was going on. Barton about doubled its portfolio in that 1995 transaction. Jerry probably had his hands full.

Since Barton acquired whiskey as part of the deal, they may have been putting Stitzel-Weller whiskey into KT and other brands, since they didn't own any legitimate wheaters themselves. That's also when they acquired the bottling and warehousing facility in Owensboro. I'm not sure what was in those warehouses at that time, though it may have been whiskey made in Owensboro at Medley. UDV had sold that distillery to Charles Medley and may have moved all the whiskey across town to Glenmore. That would not have been wheated bourbon.

As crazy as it is to imagine, Barton got whiskey in the deal and if some of it was from Stitzel-Weller, as it may well have been, Barton would not have had any particular use for it.

On the other hand, why would the deal have had to include SW whiskey? UDV owned both Medley and SW, and both were producing, at least occasionally, until Bernheim came on line in 1992, so UDV had access to both rye-recipe and wheated bourbon in every season. Somehow, I guess they wound up with excess SW at some point and put some of it in KT, but that was not a long term thing.

My thesis is that the only reason for either company to suddenly make KT a wheater would be because they had excess SW stock and needed to use it somewhere.

But there is no reason they should have had excess wheated stock. From 1992 to 1999, UDV was producing both wheated and rye-recipe bourbon at Bernheim so, again, there's no reason they would have had excess wheated bourbon for anything other than a brief period, i.e., a production planning hiccup that maybe lasted a year or two.

[CorvallisCracker]

Just did the current VSOF as Vbt #257. I thought it was pretty good. Sometime soon I may do a 3-way comparison with Lot B and Weller 12 (as I have those on hand as well).

[T Comp]

Just did the current VSOF as Vbt #257. I thought it was pretty good. Sometime soon I may do a 3-way comparison with Lot B and Weller 12 (as I have those on hand as well).

Please do! I have plenty of Lot B and Weller 12 but the current VSOF is actually hard to find on shelves in these parts. I have seen more BHC VSOF than current VSOF, and no wonder, as that juice is just bad, even if from DSP 16. Perplexing to me, is that the last of the DSP 16 juice in Old Fitz BIB (the bottled at DSP 24 stuff) is far superior to the BHC VSOF. Must be those extra years in the wood, which did its job by turning it into wood.

[cowdery]

Back to the original question and without conceding the premise, the reality is that Heaven Hill doesn't care about Old Fitzgerald. Let me explain what I mean by that. Producers have different priorities for different brands. Old Fitzgerald has a standing market and Heaven Hill is satisfied with that. They aren't investing marketing dollars to build the brand up. Now plenty of companies do spend marketing dollars and don't necessarily try to make the whiskey the best it can be, but you can bet that a company that is basically harvesting a brand, not investing in it, probably has a "good enough" attitude about the quality too.