Why isn't Old Fitzgerald better?

[bwh1927]

I did not know this until I took a tour of Heaven Hill last summer, but, since the Heaven Hill Distillery burned down a few years ago....all of their distilling is at the Old Fitz distillery in Louisville. I do not think that there is an actual Berheim Distillery. I don't like the Louisville Bourbons because of the water. It is the limestone water that is key to a good bourbon and I just think that Louisville City water (though it may still be limestone) is not the same as for the rural distilleries.

Soon the other Heaven Hill products distilled in Louisville will begin to be bottled.....I am waiting to see if there is a difference.

Baron Hagan, Daviess County, Kentucky.

GOD MADE IRISHMEN TO MAKE SURE SOMEONE DISCOVERED WHISKY. GOD MAY KENTUCKY TO MAKE SURE SOMEONE DISCOVERED BOURBON.

[bwh1927]

About Kentucky Tavern. Mly father was a distiller at Glenmore Distilleries in Daviess County Kentucky, until that distillery was close in the 1980's. Kentucky Tavern was the principle label of the Yellowstone/Glenmore Line.

The KT label was purchased by Old Mr. Boston. OMB sold the KT label to a company whose name I can not remember. That company quit the KT bourbon label and made KT a blended bourbon. Because OKT was and is a very popular brand in Kentucky, there was such an uproar that Barton Brands bought the label and Distillery 24 in Daviess County and reestablished the KT brand as a premium straight bourbon.

KENTUCKY TAVERN is considered to be a classic 4yo 80proof bourbon and is in the well of a great number bars and taverns. It is what I keep as my everyday table whiskey.

Baron Hagan, Daviess County, Kentucky

[p_elliott]

I did not know this until I took a tour of Heaven Hill last summer, but, since the Heaven Hill Distillery burned down a few years ago....all of their distilling is at the Old Fitz distillery in Louisville. I do not think that there is an actual Berheim Distillery. I don't like the Louisville Bourbons because of the water. It is the limestone water that is key to a good bourbon and I just think that Louisville City water (though it may still be limestone) is not the same as for the rural distilleries.

Soon the other Heaven Hill products distilled in Louisville will begin to be bottled.....I am waiting to see if there is a difference.

Baron Hagan, Daviess County, Kentucky.

GOD MADE IRISHMEN TO MAKE SURE SOMEONE DISCOVERED WHISKY. GOD MAY KENTUCKY TO MAKE SURE SOMEONE DISCOVERED BOURBON.

[boone]

Soon the other Heaven Hill products distilled in Louisville will begin to be bottled.....I am waiting to see if there is a difference.

:grin: :grin: We've bottled Bernheim DSP #1 (the distillery for Heaven Hill) for quite some time now. Especially the Old Fitz green--100 proof and gold--80 proof. The fire was over a decade ago (November, 1996) :grin: :grin: :grin:

[cowdery]

Heaven Hill bought the Old Fitzgerald brand and the Bernheim Distillery from Diageo in 1999. Diageo also owns the old Stitzel-Weller Distillery in Shively, which it uses for aging but not distilling.

The two facilities are several miles apart. Bernheim is in Louisville, adjacent to the Brown-Forman headquarters campus. It consists of a distillery and several large masonry warehouses. A distillery has stood on that site for more than a century. It picked up the name after Prohibition. It is named for Issac Wolfe Bernheim, maker of I. W. Harper bourbon, although he was no longer in the picture by then. It has been known by that name ever since, through several subsequent owners.

The current distillery there was built in 1991-92. After 1999, Heaven Hill made major modifications.

Every drop of Old Fitzgerald made since Stitzel-Weller closed in 1992 has come from the Bernheim Distillery.

When Buffalo Trace bought the W. L. Weller brand in 1999, it obtained wheated bourbon made at Stitzel-Weller and Bernheim. Virtually all of the Stitzel-Weller stock has been depleted. Since the Bernheim stock is now between 11 and 18 years old, a lot of the older Weller and Van Winkle whiskey you buy today is Bernheim-made. Buffalo Trace itself made some wheated bourbon during that period, but not much. Any Weller products younger than 11 years old, such as Weller Special Reserve, are likely 100 percent Buffalo Trace, while anything older is likely some combination of the two.

Even though Old Fitzgerald is the bigger brand, its reputation suffers from the fact that its primary expression, the gold label Prime, is NAS (so likely just four years old) and 80° proof, while Weller's primary expression, Wellers Special Reserve, is seven years old and 90° proof. Maker's Mark, the other wheated bourbon on the market, is also a little older and higher proof than Fitz.

There is a twelve year old Fitz, the Very Special, but it's not widely available. Heaven Hill really needs to do some tinkering with the Old Fitzgerald line. Perhaps a 100° proof eight year old?

[MrAtomic]

Chuck, just want to thank you for your last post, which clarified a pretty confusing (to me, at least) chain of events.

[ErichPryde]

If HH put out an 8 year old 100 proof Fitzgerald and put some good whiskey in the bottle and some fancy swirls ON the bottle, I think it would have a chance.

[Gillman]

Given everything Chuck said, it is my view, as one who buys all the expressions mentioned, that Old Fitzgerald is much improved in recent years. I am not sure what has made it better, or what would make it better yet, but it is not as thin and astringent as I found it some years ago. The VSOF 12 year old in particular is very nice with a marked estery note. I am not sure again what is needed to get these back to fighting form (DSP 16-era that is). Aging is probably one factor. Another might be barrel entry proof, perhaps yeast plays a role, hard to say. But anyone who can find current VSOF 12 would agree I think this is excellent bourbon worth the price asked.

Gary

[cowdery]

As I have written elsewhere, the current excellence of Van Winkle Lot B, which cannot possibly still be Stitzel-Weller whiskey, convinces me it is possible to produce wheated bourbon as well as Stitzel-Weller did somewhere else. I also consider the Weller SR and 12 to be superb, if perhaps not quite in Lot B's league.

[marco246]

Wish I had taken time to consult the board before buying a bottle of Old Fitzgerald's 1849 from a store in KY and then having it shipped all the way to Hawaii. I like wheaters and also have a Will Rogers-like philosophy regarding bourbon: "I never met a bourbon I didn't like." So I didn't think I could go very far wrong.

Well, I've met one now: 1849. It is insipid. I won't drink it and don't want to mix it with other whiskey. A blending would just produce even more swill. Think I'll just reserve it for the occasional undiscriminating guest who wants a bourbon and coke.

Heaven Hill help me, I also bought a bottle of VSOF 12 at the same time. I'm almost afraid to open it.

[Gillman]

Some comments gathered on HH's BHC website on VSOF 12:

http://www.bourbonheritagecenter.com/site/bourbons/old-fitzgerald-12.html

[BourbonJoe]

As I have written elsewhere, the current excellence of Van Winkle Lot B, which cannot possibly still be Stitzel-Weller whiskey, convinces me it is possible to produce wheated bourbon as well as Stitzel-Weller did somewhere else. I also consider the Weller SR and 12 to be superb, if perhaps not quite in Lot B's league.

[CaptainQ]

The last Lot B I had in a tasting lost to Elijah Craig 12 y/o. I doubt it is as good as you describe.

Joe :usflag:

[DeanSheen]

The last Lot B I had in a tasting lost to Elijah Craig 12 y/o. I doubt it is as good as you describe.

Joe :usflag:

Wow. Which tasting was that?

I believe it's possible but seems improbable.

[nor02lei]

The last Lot B I had in a tasting lost to Elijah Craig 12 y/o. I doubt it is as good as you describe.

Joe :usflag:

A good bottle of EC12 would beat out any lot B to me as well Joe.

Leif

[Gillman]

Yes, but it's wheater vs. rye-recipe, I think that should be factored because no matter how good a wheater is, rye recipe usually is more interesting. (Source: Bourbon, Straight, and he's right).

Gary

[nor02lei]

Yes, but it's wheater vs. rye-recipe, I think that should be factored because no matter how good a wheater is, rye recipe usually is more interesting. (Source: Bourbon, Straight, and he's right).

Gary

[Gillman]

Well, taste does vary, to be sure.

I was comparing too bourbons of today, in the same quality class, as I think you could say for Lot B and EC 12.

Gary

[p_elliott]

I'm a rye bourbon fan for the most part but of the two I would take Lot B over EC12 anytime but then again I would take just about any bourbon over EC12.

[Gillman]

I would suggest in a blind tasting, the EC 12 would come out on top generally, because as a ryed bourbon, it simply has more impact than a non-ryed bourbon. This is not to say people familiar with both may not prefer the Lot B over the other but in a blind tasting, which is what Joe was talking about I believe, I can see that the EC 12 might win out. All wheaters are milder than rye bourbons in the same general class anyway.

Gary

[funknik]

I have seen more BHC VSOF than current VSOF, and no wonder, as that juice is just bad, even if from DSP 16.

What?!?!

I have heard many say that the current VSOF is an abonimation, but never the other way around. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I'm defensive of the BHC VSOF because it's dear to my heart and I find it to be a tremendous whiskey, but still . . . I did a head-to-head of the

S-W VSOF 12 vs. the Bernheim with some whiskey people I rank as better tasters than myself and it was a unanimous vote that the BHC was something special and the Bernheim was fairly pedestrian.

I've also had it side-by-side with an Old Fitz BIB from the early 90's and found it superior in every way (except maybe proof :grin: ). Bottled in '95 has to put the VSOF as distilled around '83 . . . as I said, I am biased on this one, but I'm very surprised to hear it described as "bad". Specifically what about it offends you?

Ok -- just had to get that one out of my system.

[funknik]

1849. It is insipid. I won't drink it and don't want to mix it with other whiskey. A blending would just produce even more swill. Think I'll just reserve it for the occasional undiscriminating guest who wants a bourbon and coke.

I hated this one -- could not agree with you more -- worst money I ever spent on bourbon.

[MikeK]

I hated this one -- could not agree with you more -- worst money I ever spent on bourbon.

I got serious about Whiskey a number of years back right about the time 1849 went from an 8yo to NAS. There was an intermediate bottle that had an 'aged in wood' sticker on it too. It was remarkable to sample the progression of the 3 bottlings and see the epic decrease in goodness.

Very sad. I cherish, and will enjoy, the last bottle or two of good 1849 I still have in the bunker.

[funknik]

I got serious about Whiskey a number of years back right about the time 1849 went from an 8yo to NAS. There was an intermediate bottle that had an 'aged in wood' sticker on it too. It was remarkable to sample the progression of the 3 bottlings and see the epic decrease in goodness.

Very sad.

Funny you should mention that . . . when I picked up my bottle, I made sure to get the intermediate one that claimed "aged in wood" (from '04), rather than the current ones on the shelf. I'll say this: If the current stuff is more of a disaster than that "aged in wood" bottling, then heaven help the poor bastard who crosses its path.

[Gillman]

Interesting to see such negative comments. I've bought a number of these over the years (not just the hard-to-find VSOF 12) and find them better than 10 years ago. Also, you have to relate them to bourbons in a similar age and price class. The quality may not be what it was when produced at DSP 16 but they are not premium-priced either. They are good solid bourbon IMO, worth the money asked.

Just to be a bit more specific, in inexpensive bourbon, sometimes you find fuselly notes, or too much corn oil (same thing really). I do not find this with the Fitzgerald brands. They have a good clean taste albeit not a rich one generally.

Gary